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I cannot be both Kenyan and Christian regarding this proposed constitution
ProverB
#1 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 9:51:32 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/12/2010
Posts: 1,199
Location: Eastlander
Jeremiah 1:5 … before I knit you in your mother’s womb I chose you. Before you were born I set you apart…
Isaiah 44:2a … I am your creator. You were in my care even before you were born…

I’m not a fluke… neither am I a freak of nature… nor an accident. I am no mistake nor am I a mishap. My existence is not by chance, fate, luck nor coincidence.
Long before I was conceived by my parents I was conceived in the mind of God. Am a being of precise and deliberate thinking to come to existence

Psalms 139:16 … You saw me before I was born… and scheduled each day of my life before I begun to breathe. Everyday of my life was recorded in your Book

Psalms 139:15 … You know me inside and out, you know every bone in my body; You know exactly how I was made, bit by bit, how I was sculpted from nothing into something

He deliberately chose that I be a dude, kao, 5”5, dark skinned, kinky haired, loud, opinionated, stubborn, passionate…He custom made me just the way He wanted me to be… He determined my gifting and talents, my inclinations, my interests, my desires and all that is me… my love for piano, my enthusiasm for stocks… more over He crafted and knit together my peculiarities and uniqueness… He wired my thinking… He deliberately planned where I’d be born, to whom I’d be born, when I’d be born

Nothing about me was a surprise to Him… I’m exactly what He envisioned… shaped for a specific reason and purpose only He could determine. His reason, His purposes. He knows me so well.

Psalms 139:1-5 … Lord, you have examined me and know all about me.
You know when I sit down and when I get up
You know my thoughts before I think them you know where I go and where I lie down.
You know everything I do
Lord, even before I say a word you already know it
You are all around me-in front and in back-
And have put your hand on me.

It’s amazing that God decided how I would be born! Regardless of the circumstances of my birth, nor who my parents are, nor what my family is like. God planned where I’d be born, where I’d live… every single day of my life to the very least of details… including when and how my life will end

God never does anything accidentally, and He never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal… including the mosquito you quashed last night and the roach u smashed this morning… the grass you trod upon and the rose you picked for her… the bird that calls and makes you marvel at nature… every single live being that adds to the beauty, harmony and tranquility of nature… “All creation declares His glory” is a statement of fact… not a witty poetic expression. Every person was designed with a purpose in mind…

The concept of the existence of evil and sin means that satan will continually and persistently attempt to thwart the will and purposes of God in this world… what better way than terminate life? Are at least conjure up methods where man does this for him?

Life is not ours to doctor… to define… neither is it ours to determine nor end…
This is why we cannot let the decision to terminate life is defined by a single “medical practitioner, nor as permitted by any other written law…”as is provided by in the draft constitution.

The one positive thing about the current constitution is that it requires the ATLEAST 3 Licensed medical practitioners, including a gynecologist, and a psychologist before approving an abortion procedure…


How therefore can I be expected to vote “Yes” for this draft? Seriously help me understand…
All ye “experts” out there!

The claim by clergy is that the draft should ADD the fact that “Life is sacred and starts at conception”… and that more stringent rules be in place where abortion is warranted. 10 years down the line, it is the lady that procured the abortion that is still reeling from nightmares and traumas of the abortion… not the physician that did it… interestingly… she will go to the pastor for help!!


Are we so desperate for change that we are willing to put God aside?... do we really believe we can handle the psychological fall out?

whatever choice i vote...am i a Christian first and then a kenyan.. or am I kenyan first?
..Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven...Matt5:16
- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version
nanfor1
#2 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 10:09:57 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
Quote:
Life is not ours to doctor… to define… neither is it ours to determine nor end…


I wonder, does that mean that you never go see a doctor when you get sick?

My friend, a constitution is made for everyone. christians, muslims, hindus, atheists, mungiki.

It is not a document to take you to heaven.

So in your case, I think you are a "fundamental" christian first. So vote no.

I am a christian and believe in giving unto ceasar's

Coz whatever we tell you, you still believe that it is ok for the clergy to decide when a woman with an ectopic birth should die or not.

Hata wakizima taa
masukuma
#3 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 10:52:14 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@nanfor1, the pro-choicers in this conversation are always pointing to the obvious. please read the PSC draft to understand

Quote:
4. Abortion is not permitted unless in the opinion of a registered medical practitioner, the life of the mother is in danger


was changed to

Quote:
4. Abortion is not permitted unless in the opinion of a trained health professional, there is need for emergency treatment, or the life or the health of the mother is in danger or if permitted by any other written law.


and you wonder why there is all this noise!!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
nanfor1
#4 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:05:27 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
let me take these one by one

registered medical practitioner vs trained health professional

Not everyone lives in Nairobi with a doctor nearby you know. So going by the first defination, everyone in my home area in marakwet who has not seen a doctor for more than a year can be charged in a court of law if their wife decides to give birth in the streets..We have to be realistic here or we shall have everyone in N.E.P and Turkana in jail next week.

life or health of the mother - We are in 2010 and the world really is round so,health must encompass both physical and mental.

Permitted by any other law - I know you think that this means that parliament will pass a law forcing everyone to abort the next birth. If that is your fear, then go vote for a good MP. Times change and you never know what new things will come up soon. That must be included in any reasonable constitution.

Masukuma. If the clergy had left the clause the way it was from bomas, I can assure you, this would not be happening.

By insisting that life begins at conception it meant that every woman who took a contraceptive in Kenya was guilty of murder.

That would include all the women I know; probably including your daughter, wife or mom. The other parts of the (4) had to be added to protect such.

By being too aggressive, they opened a door they can never shut.
Hata wakizima taa
ProverB
#5 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:13:41 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/12/2010
Posts: 1,199
Location: Eastlander
@nan..
this is just an opinion.
i'm no legal expert..all i know..the draft ought cover loop holes..not redress nor open new ones..
My use of the term "doctor" has nothing to do with medical practice.. just english word to cater for "meddling".
..Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven...Matt5:16
- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version
nanfor1
#6 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:21:27 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
That is why we have judges to interpret what the law is actually saying. Not us laymen coming up with scenarios that may or not happen.

I keep on asking my No fellows, which woman do you know who happily goes to have an abortion? Your answer is exactly what you think about women.

I know women who have aborted due to medical issues, others by choice, others by circumstances. I don't know of any of them who goes around wearing a T-shirt that says, I aborted and very excited about it.
Hata wakizima taa
ProverB
#7 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:33:37 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/12/2010
Posts: 1,199
Location: Eastlander
well.. when all is said and done to vote "yes" or "no" is an individual right..

my opinion is based on the fact that if I claim to be Christian..then that aspect of me that is christian should influence my life.. and my life choices..including how that life is governed..so the Bible has a say in it..my life.. i am not seeking influence you to vote my choice..just letting you know why i will not vote your choice...

..Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven...Matt5:16
- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version
2012
#8 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:43:43 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
@ProverB has a point. I also think this section can be easily abused. Any health practitioner arrested for carrying out an abortion can claim the life of the mother was in danger plus which Form 4 cop is going to arrest a Doctor for a medical error?
All the same as a Christian I don't think saying YES to this document is endorsing the evil. I like 95% of it and and I'll say YES to that then I'll actively fight to change the 5%. Don't wait for a constitution that will please you 100%. Don't abandon an entire journey just because a small section of the road has portholes.

BBI will solve it
:)
nanfor1
#9 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:01:29 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
Progress at last

We agree to disagree. Not agree to bring hell and brimstone and a few matchetes.Applause Applause
Hata wakizima taa
Wendz
#10 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:52:55 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
I think civic education is very important going by the arguments that are doing rounds in our society..... some are so misguided and people just want to stick to their guns even when they are outrightly wrong.

Like a gentleman i spoke to over lunch - well schooled and all - says he is voting NO because if he votes yes and the constitution goes through with Khadhi courts, the muslims will only need some signatures and change the whole document to suit their interests....... - then I ask, what makes him think that we(christians) shall need another "expensive" referendum to change the contentious issues like abortion and kadhi courts and the muslims wont need the same referendum to make their clauses that will suit them and how successful he thinks the muslims will be at the referendum and he has not answer...... but he still claims its too risky....?
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