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What is Democracy?
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not? US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority. In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU! Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Democracy is what you decide it to be. For some its electoral college votes, others like us its 50%+1 while for some its kura ya makelele, mlolongo etc etc. For others like UK the leader of the party that wins most seats in parliament becomes the PM. As long as all the players know the rules of their version of democracy and play by those rules, then hakuna shida coz they would have won or lost fairly.
I think in the case of the US they decided to have the electoral college so that smaller states could participate equally and have a voice and not be under perpetual "tyranny of numbers" from populous states like California, Florida etc.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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hardwood wrote:Democracy is what you decide it to be. For some its electoral college votes, others like us its 50%+1 while for some its kura ya makelele, mlolongo etc etc. As long as all the players know the rules of their version of democracy, then hakuna shida coz they would have won or lost fairly.
I think in the case of the US they decided to have the electoral college so that smaller states could participate equally and have a voice and not be under "tyranny of numbers" from populous states like California, Florida etc. True democracies (majority having their say) don't work in heterogeneous settings. For me all these systems are competitions, events that we need to engage in so that we don't go to war over resources or a certain prize. So whatever works for the contesting teams - but it must be agreed upon by all significant sides of the contest. It's like a football match... it has rules and a way to count scores. So you decide before hand that all balls that pass through the enclosure we call a goal post shall be counted and the one with most wins. You cannot later come an say...Oh.. I won because I had 90% possession, 50 shots at goal and you guys won by an own goal. I saw a tweet by someone who i really respect to the effect that Quote:Electoral votes are what candidates campaign for. If the winning candidate had been campaigning for the popular vote, he'd have got more.
Ganering electoral votes was the contest... not popular votes. He won! clean! should California fell cheated? yes! but let them address that in the next election. Let them ask to get a better representation. Let them arm twist the establishment and push for it's interest. Saa hii Madam ako na 800k on top of Trump... let the 800k strong side figure out how to make sure their influence is felt in future elections. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women). That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable. The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women). That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable. The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. @Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! Winston S. Churchill — 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.' In my opinion, democracy is not the voting but the system agreed to by the majority. The American system worked as perfectly as it was supposed to. What the need to do now is go back and see if their system still applies in today's world. I feel nothing for Hillary's losing, she was a terrible candidate but for Al Gore it's still not clear today if he lost.
BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/26/2007 Posts: 6,514
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Sounds familiar? Sycophants, pls respond... Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women). That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable. The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. @Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance? Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe. As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree. As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=Lolest!]
The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. Hey!!!!...  ....are your sure they call that democracy?  Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Njung'e wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=Lolest!]
The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. Hey!!!!... ....are your sure they call that democracy? A Kenyan friend used to call it 'guided democracy' "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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