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Results:Auditors cooking books like new quail?
businesspundit
#1 Posted : Monday, November 30, 2015 8:24:33 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/16/2015
Posts: 15
Hello, Can someone provide some insights to this story:

Auditors on the frying pan after ‘cooking’ of books at Uchumi

If Auditors are cooking the books, and you base your decisions on these auditor's results (to buy/sell a stock or not), how can you be sure you made the correct decision since it could all be fake?

Wasn't this what happened with Enron or recently DECI or quail birds? Over-promising, over-reporting and financial wizardry?
If we say corruption is a cancer, and it has spread to the churches, schools e.t.c, why not auditing companies?
sparkly
#2 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 7:06:21 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Auditors do not prepare books. They are watchdogs not bloodhoods.

C&P from isaca.org....

More than 100 years have elapsed since the Court of Appeal in England delivered a landmark judgment in the Kingston Cotton Mills case.

The facts were reasonably simple and not contended by the parties. The company's managing director, who subsequently confessed the frauds he committed, had falsified its accounts.

In particular, the quantities and value of the company's stock had been falsified for many years but there was nothing on the face of the accounts to excite suspicion. It was suggested to the court that the auditor should not have relied solely on the representation of the managing director and should have further investigated the matter.

In a unanimous judgment, the three Lord Justices reversed the decision of the lower court and found in favor of the auditor:


"It is the duty of an auditor to bring to bear on the work he has to perform that skill, care, and caution which a reasonably competent, careful, and cautious auditor would use.
An auditor is not bound to be a detective, or, as was said, to approach his work with suspicion, or with a foregone conclusion that there is something wrong. He is a watchdog, but not a bloodhound.
Auditors must not be made liable for not tracking out ingenious and carefully laid schemes of fraud, when there is nothing to arouse their suspicion ...So to hold would make the position of an auditor intolerable."

—Lord Justice Lopes

Regarding Kingston Cotton Mills (1896) 1
Life is short. Live passionately.
Angelica _ann
#3 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 7:33:52 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
So at what point would auditors be liable or their work is cosmetic?
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
4eva eva
#4 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 8:03:08 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 11/3/2015
Posts: 45
Location: Mombatha
Any auditors in the house,please justify your work
Gathige
#5 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 8:22:53 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 2,242
Angelica _ann wrote:
So at what point would auditors be liable or their work is cosmetic?



The responsibility of preparing books of accounts lies with the management. Auditors only express an opinion based on a sampled check of the resultant financial statements. An auditor can be liable for professional misconduct in the course of an audit eg failure to comply with financial standards in the conduct of an audit or a failure to maintain proper working papers documenting the process taken in conducting an audit exercise.

In most instances, the management is hell bent to cover fraud which is hard to detect as a transaction is initiated with an intent to fraud. In rare instances would an auditor be complicit in the fraud scheme.
"Things that matter most must never be at the mercy of things that matter least." Goethe
businesspundit
#6 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 9:19:46 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/16/2015
Posts: 15
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.
Lolest!
#7 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 9:42:49 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
businesspundit wrote:
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.

You'd have to do a forensic audit if you treat board and management as suspects
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
mkenyan
#8 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 10:11:23 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,883
Lolest! wrote:
businesspundit wrote:
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.

You'd have to do a forensic audit if you treat board and management as suspects

seems like in kenya we then need both 'audited returns' and 'forensic-audited returns'.
Cde Monomotapa
#9 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 10:17:04 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/13/2011
Posts: 5,964
Yup, Public Service will soon become a calling. HBP central.

Big shift as law requires firms to publish details of CEOs pay http://www.businessdaily...8/-/drfa7yz/-/index.html
Cde Monomotapa
#10 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 1:43:44 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/13/2011
Posts: 5,964
mkenyan wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
businesspundit wrote:
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.

You'd have to do a forensic audit if you treat board and management as suspects

seems like in kenya we then need both 'audited returns' and 'forensic-audited returns'.


Britam are hiring:
Forensic Auditor
Quote:
Job Purpose: Proactively preventing, detecting and investigating frauds for the Group
- See more at: http://careers.britam.co...25#sthash.Ccokvfui.dpuf
Gathige
#11 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 2:09:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 2,242
Cde Monomotapa wrote:
mkenyan wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
businesspundit wrote:
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.

You'd have to do a forensic audit if you treat board and management as suspects

seems like in kenya we then need both 'audited returns' and 'forensic-audited returns'.


Britam are hiring:
Forensic Auditor
Quote:
Job Purpose: Proactively preventing, detecting and investigating frauds for the Group
- See more at: http://careers.britam.co...25#sthash.Ccokvfui.dpuf



Forensic audit is not statutory but the management can action it to help manage risk. The day to day operations team headed by te CEO remains overall responsible for ensuring controls to manage risks are in place and working properly.

BTW is very hard to fix an auditor as a complaint has to be done to their professional body who at all time will defend their own.
"Things that matter most must never be at the mercy of things that matter least." Goethe
morre
#12 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 2:43:12 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 1/5/2011
Posts: 93
businesspundit wrote:
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.


Please look at the auditors' report page of any audited financial statements and read out the responsibilities of an auditor. and those of management. Very clear.

ION.... going forward year ending 2016... management will be required to disclose very specific management and director details. Salaries and also key matters affecting the business during the year ended and future outlook. e.t.c Auditors will also have to comment on the same.. so expect a 4 or 5 page report.... reference changes in ISA 701 (and ISA 700) together with the changes in the companies act.
If you dont want to use plan B, have a good plan A.
businesspundit
#13 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:00:58 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/16/2015
Posts: 15
It seems that management has passed the buck over to the auditors. Now auditors have passed the buck over to 'forensic auditors'. So, forensic auditors, the buck stops with you. (unless you pass it). Can you forensic auditors confirm?

From now on when I see 'Unaudited results" statemtent, I will ignore, when I see "Audited results statemet" , I will roll my eyes. Only when i see "forensic audited results" is when I will buy a stock. (Assuming forensic auditor has not also been compromised).
Othelo
#14 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:19:39 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 1/20/2014
Posts: 3,528
Auditors in the house, let us agree that the young audit boys/girls ... Audit whatever sent to carry out the actual audit normally unearth these thieving, frauds and cookings.

But when they raise the issues, the matters are taken over by the overall wadosi who meet in some cafe somewhere with management and agree to relax as the matter is being looked into. That is the sad reality and many here know that!!!!
Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
Swenani
#15 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:38:13 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
Angelica _ann wrote:
So at what point would auditors be liable or their work is cosmetic?



Auditors are supposed to express an opinion on the truth and fairness of financial statements.

If you can prove that unqualified audit opinion doesn't represent the true and fair position of financials statements,then the auditors are professionally liable.

So yes,the are culpablein uchumi case since they provided unqualified opinion on misleading financial statements and position of the firm
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
Swenani
#16 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:42:15 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
businesspundit wrote:
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.


Simply put,Auditors work is to express an opinion(true or false) on the financial statements presented by the management.That opinion should be based on some audit procedures
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
shiznit
#17 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:45:10 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 72
Location: KENYA
morre wrote:
businesspundit wrote:
So what is the work of the auditor? To rubber-stamp results and then to change the headline of company's colorful financial statement from "Unaudited results" to "Audited results"? Even me with no accounting, I can do that with MS Word. Just tell me where to rubber stamp and I will charge only half price.


Please look at the auditors' report page of any audited financial statements and read out the responsibilities of an auditor. and those of management. Very clear.

ION.... going forward year ending 2016... management will be required to disclose very specific management and director details. Salaries and also key matters affecting the business during the year ended and future outlook. e.t.c Auditors will also have to comment on the same.. so expect a 4 or 5 page report.... reference changes in ISA 701 (and ISA 700) together with the changes in the companies act.



What exactly are these changes to ISA 701 and 700? Because I know the new Companies Act still retains the same old auditor statement as whether the accounts give "a true and fair view" of the company.
“The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.” - John Maynard Keynes
Emerger
#18 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:46:12 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/1/2014
Posts: 45
Location: Nairobi
businesspundit wrote:
It seems that management has passed the buck over to the auditors. Now auditors have passed the buck over to 'forensic auditors'. So, forensic auditors, the buck stops with you. (unless you pass it). Can you forensic auditors confirm?

From now on when I see 'Unaudited results" statemtent, I will ignore, when I see "Audited results statemet" , I will roll my eyes. Only when i see "forensic audited results" is when I will buy a stock. (Assuming forensic auditor has not also been compromised).


Each party has his responsilibility outlined. From the times of Enron et al, every failure is routed to the auditor 1st before the truth is revealed simply because its expected he will give an opinion of the corporates financials health and truthfulness. His opinion is purely based on information provided by the management and where in his professional view the materiality of the information not provided which he states.
Management (executive) read in conjunction with directors are the main teams behind the organizations financial health.

That notwithstanding, its very critical nowadays for any independent party (read auditors) to understand the business of the client and the risks universe of such business. This will go along way in enhancing effectiveness.
Swenani
#19 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:50:44 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
Othelo wrote:
Auditors in the house, let us agree that the young audit boys/girls ... Audit whatever sent to carry out the actual audit normally unearth these thieving, frauds and cookings.

But when they raise the issues, the matters are taken over by the overall wadosi who meet in some cafe somewhere with management and agree to relax as the matter is being looked into. That is the sad reality and many here know that!!!!


When audit firm sends in fresh graduates with an audit manager who doesnt know how a DR and CR looks in the system, you can't expect much from them.

Some auditors usually ask for the transactions in T-account format the way they were taught in school.

I think it should be mandatory for auditors to be accountants first before becoming auditors(whether audit trainers,audit seniors or practicing auditors).

Most auditors carry out their work based on theoretical knowledge taught in school. If you dump transactions listing from you accounting system to the auditors,most of them will be shy to ask for clarification/or explanation in understanding them since they do not want to appear clueless because they are from the big 4
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
VituVingiSana
#20 Posted : Tuesday, December 01, 2015 6:19:34 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,121
Location: Nairobi
Swenani wrote:
Othelo wrote:
Auditors in the house, let us agree that the young audit boys/girls ... Audit whatever sent to carry out the actual audit normally unearth these thieving, frauds and cookings.

But when they raise the issues, the matters are taken over by the overall wadosi who meet in some cafe somewhere with management and agree to relax as the matter is being looked into. That is the sad reality and many here know that!!!!


When audit firm sends in fresh graduates with an audit manager who doesnt know how a DR and CR looks in the system, you can't expect much from them.

Some auditors usually ask for the transactions in T-account format the way they were taught in school.

I think it should be mandatory for auditors to be accountants first before becoming auditors(whether audit trainers,audit seniors or practicing auditors).

Most auditors carry out their work based on theoretical knowledge taught in school. If you dump transactions listing from you accounting system to the auditors,most of them will be shy to ask for clarification/or explanation in understanding them since they do not want to appear clueless because they are from the big 4

Applies to many professions! Folks are afraid to ask questions lest they appear stupid.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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