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On morality and ethics
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Of late I have found myself struggling with misanthropy. The banality, and futility of most human actions, the folly of most human principles has been gnawing me from within, and I have been seething with rage without noticing it. Yesterday I almost went to war with a dear friend for a most trivial matter. He called me 'a book'.
I also caught myself loathing one of my students because I had come to discover that his aptitude wasn't as high as I had supposed it to be.
These and many other recent incidences have led me to think about what I deem to be good, or evil, and to my further dismay is the realization that very few of us know what's good or evil. Many say that good is what's prescribed by Scripture for example, but I have discovered that's a recipe for the worst forms of corruption and immorality. Others have championed for reason and relativism, but then have ended up either being paralyzed of action and or participators in anarchy and human debasement. For example, some will say that there's neither good or bad, only the person chooses which is which; but is that really meaningful, leave alone true?
Others will base goodness and evil on the opinions of significant others. Like being faithful to a spouse, but this has all the seeds of confusion and emasculation of the human spirit that it's easy to show that such principles are immoral and desperately wicked. Or that a government should base its legitimacy on majoritarian principles and have a say on what's moral on such basis.
So I'd like those who can and are willing to engage on this matter to join in me in thinking and creating an understanding on this matter.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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I cannot dispute the futility of having own reason as 'standard'.
It is true that the scripture may be a recipe for the worst forms of corruption.
I, as you struggled with your anomaly, have found myself being very harsh, yes, loathing even, one who I regard as not having sufficient aptitude who thought rape is prescribed in scripture. He read it and thought it was the way he thought. Thought.
But a recipe implies step by step, methodology, sequence. How have the dominoes fallen? Is it significant? I think it is. The one I loathed is proof (and I may have so failed as his teacher) that sequence makes all the difference in the discrimination of good from/and/or evil.
If man-god struggles with misanthropy surely is it not indicative of certain disabilities that negate the godliness and goodliness of man?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:I cannot dispute the futility of having own reason as 'standard'.
It is true that the scripture may be a recipe for the worst forms of corruption.
I, as you struggled with your anomaly, have found myself being very harsh, yes, loathing even, one who I regard as not having sufficient aptitude who thought rape is prescribed in scripture. He read it and thought it was the way he thought. Thought.
But a recipe implies step by step, methodology, sequence. How have the dominoes fallen? Is it significant? I think it is. The one I loathed is proof (and I may have so failed as his teacher) that sequence makes all the difference in the discrimination of good from/and/or evil.
If man-god struggles with misanthropy surely is it not indicative of certain disabilities that negate the godliness and goodliness of man?
I feel, think, see that you're saying, showing, thinking about something 'important', but the complexity is overwhelming. For example, how does the human relate to and with the recipe of morality. How does this relation arise? This probably opens up the discovery of the disabilities that characterize the human. Thinking of disabilities, then I see socialization as an attempt at covering up for the inability of humanity to understand itself. I am experiencing the inability or is it disability? It's like trying to lift a tonne of metal on bench press.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
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Consider the situation in the garden of Eden. The knowledge of good and evil was their undoing. and ours. We always project meaning when we make observations... on the basis of good bad right wrong rich poor moral immoral intelligent stupid... etc Children can observe from purity...without projecting meaning. True observation. The account in Genesis says everything God created was Good. Adam and eve accepted a knowledge that gave them ability to observe and acknowledge 'other than good'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Recipe implies a start, a beginning, step one. Hence sequence. A correct grasp of sequence not only gives the intended result but is also not overwhelming - the sequence becomes simple.
What was mentioned earlier, reason and relativism, have been shown to be an experiment whose results revealed a grievous misunderstanding of the human nature.
Indeed, following the correction of the incorrect sequence, the affliction of human minds, we will naturally, as the green blade turns to the sun, turn to the 'important'. Eden.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Mtu Biz wrote:Consider the situation in the garden of Eden.
The knowledge of good and evil was their undoing.
and ours.
We always project meaning when we make observations... on the basis of good bad right wrong rich poor moral immoral intelligent stupid... etc
Children can observe from purity...without projecting meaning. True observation.
The account in Genesis says everything God created was Good. Adam and eve accepted a knowledge that gave them ability to observe and acknowledge 'other than good'
Could we say that being born is disadvantageous? To say that something was 'our undoing' is once again to commit ourselves to good and evil. It's the lot of humanity to know good and evil. And in this case then I can say the description in the book of Genesis is an initial and necessary condition of existence that defies prior conditions that may be said to be pre-political or 'state of nature'. The child is innocent but it must grow out of innocence irrevocably. The human is thus left with a compromise between them and God such that they can only endeavor to avoid evil, and have punishment and suffering to remind them of God's goodness. This is the pattern of the 'Old testament'. But in the new humanity sees the possibility of rebirth, and perpetual sustainance of innocence. The 'New testament' is about a transformation and redefinition of humanity where ALL can be good.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:Recipe implies a start, a beginning, step one. Hence sequence. A correct grasp of sequence not only gives the intended result but is also not overwhelming - the sequence becomes simple.
What was mentioned earlier, reason and relativism, have been shown to be an experiment whose results revealed a grievous misunderstanding of the human nature.
Indeed, following the correction of the incorrect sequence, the affliction of human minds, we will naturally, as the green blade turns to the sun, turn to the 'important'. Eden. What's this recipe we're talking about? The recipe of life? Of experience? The burden of life is heavy in the 'normal' sense. The child must feel evil acutely because the world can't respond without inflicting pain. Our method of understanding life is flawed hence the burden of life must be heavy. If one can get a sequence and method of living that lightens the burden? The method is that of how to live like the lillies or the lotus flower.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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There's a disaster awaiting all who fail to integrate 'art', 'music', and 'science'. Mythology is this integration; it's essential to the 'formula'.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Lotus ,,, the flower. Hhhmmm!
The 'recipe' could be both.
What is this 'burden of life'? And why is it heavy?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:Lotus ,,, the flower. Hhhmmm!
The 'recipe' could be both.
What is this 'burden of life'? And why is it heavy? The burden of life is essentially the quest for meaning in contradictory experience. It's Man knowing good and evil trying to maximize on good without avail. It's heavy because though there's toil and clamor the end is never achieved. It's Sysiphus trying to roll an ever growing rock up the mountain only to be overwhelmed by the weight of the rock. Enlightenment, the recipe, is to stop rolling the rock. Then everything becomes light.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:
So I'd like those who can and are willing to engage on this matter to join in me in thinking and creating an understanding on this matter.
Tycho, I may be late to this party but here is my small kamchango: I define morality as the setting of boundaries, between what I consider good and evil. But I have also come to appreciate that in many respects, this is a false boundary and it applies only to me. This is quite helpful when it comes to appreciating other people's morality or lack thereof. I have had the good luck, or bad, as you may see it, to encounter people or situations where practically every moral principle I hold dear is inverted. Where taking human life, stealing, rape, blasphemy etc are morally upheld as good. Where then would I stand to judge or condemn? My advice is 'just relax.' It is a relative Universe after all. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:
So I'd like those who can and are willing to engage on this matter to join in me in thinking and creating an understanding on this matter.
Tycho, I may be late to this party but here is my small kamchango: I define morality as the setting of boundaries, between what I consider good and evil. But I have also come to appreciate that in many respects, this is a false boundary and it applies only to me. This is quite helpful when it comes to appreciating other people's morality or lack thereof. I have had the good luck, or bad, as you may see it, to encounter people or situations where practically every moral principle I hold dear is inverted. Where taking human life, stealing, rape, blasphemy etc are morally upheld as good. Where then would I stand to judge or condemn? My advice is 'just relax.' It is a relative Universe after all. If there's an abused expression then it's that of a 'relative universe'. 'Universe' has singularity about it. 'Relative' has multiplicity in it. So your expression makes sense only when the multiple reduces to singularity and vice versa. That's the crux of morality. Morality goes beyond setting boundaries or making judgements. Per chance, have you ever looked into the mystery of the Baghavad Gita? Story begins in a battle field, where murder is imminent. Let's take a practical example, how does terrorism feature in your moral conception?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Lotus ,,, the flower. Hhhmmm!
The 'recipe' could be both.
What is this 'burden of life'? And why is it heavy? The burden of life is essentially the quest for meaning in contradictory experience. It's Man knowing good and evil trying to maximize on good without avail. It's heavy because though there's toil and clamor the end is never achieved. It's Sysiphus trying to roll an ever growing rock up the mountain only to be overwhelmed by the weight of the rock. Enlightenment, the recipe, is to stop rolling the rock. Then everything becomes light. What makes is a 'contradictory experience'? Are not the 'contradictions' merely 'sequences'?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Lotus ,,, the flower. Hhhmmm!
The 'recipe' could be both.
What is this 'burden of life'? And why is it heavy? The burden of life is essentially the quest for meaning in contradictory experience. It's Man knowing good and evil trying to maximize on good without avail. It's heavy because though there's toil and clamor the end is never achieved. It's Sysiphus trying to roll an ever growing rock up the mountain only to be overwhelmed by the weight of the rock. Enlightenment, the recipe, is to stop rolling the rock. Then everything becomes light. What makes is a 'contradictory experience'? Are not the 'contradictions' merely 'sequences'? The contradictions are a result of how cognition develops and the conflict it raises with our nature. Piaget provides us with a picture of what happens in the developing human. Other psychologists provide us with insights on how the developing human understands and relates with the world. Yes, it's a sequence, but the sequence is faulty.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Lotus ,,, the flower. Hhhmmm!
The 'recipe' could be both.
What is this 'burden of life'? And why is it heavy? The burden of life is essentially the quest for meaning in contradictory experience. It's Man knowing good and evil trying to maximize on good without avail. It's heavy because though there's toil and clamor the end is never achieved. It's Sysiphus trying to roll an ever growing rock up the mountain only to be overwhelmed by the weight of the rock. Enlightenment, the recipe, is to stop rolling the rock. Then everything becomes light. What makes is a 'contradictory experience'? Are not the 'contradictions' merely 'sequences'? The contradictions are a result of how cognition develops and the conflict it raises with our nature. Piaget provides us with a picture of what happens in the developing human. Other psychologists provide us with insights on how the developing human understands and relates with the world. Yes, it's a sequence, but the sequence is faulty. Then these 'contradictions' are not really 'contradictions'. What could be perceived as a 'contradiction' by one may not be so to another. IS this not relativism? Why are we reinventing the wheel? Cannot we learn from the French?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Lotus ,,, the flower. Hhhmmm!
The 'recipe' could be both.
What is this 'burden of life'? And why is it heavy? The burden of life is essentially the quest for meaning in contradictory experience. It's Man knowing good and evil trying to maximize on good without avail. It's heavy because though there's toil and clamor the end is never achieved. It's Sysiphus trying to roll an ever growing rock up the mountain only to be overwhelmed by the weight of the rock. Enlightenment, the recipe, is to stop rolling the rock. Then everything becomes light. What makes is a 'contradictory experience'? Are not the 'contradictions' merely 'sequences'? The contradictions are a result of how cognition develops and the conflict it raises with our nature. Piaget provides us with a picture of what happens in the developing human. Other psychologists provide us with insights on how the developing human understands and relates with the world. Yes, it's a sequence, but the sequence is faulty. Then these 'contradictions' are not really 'contradictions'. What could be perceived as a 'contradiction' by one may not be so to another. IS this not relativism? Why are we reinventing the wheel? Cannot we learn from the French? These contradictions are really contradictions @muriel. For clarity let's do this, using what we've said, show how the 'relativism' doesn't lead to contradiction. For me I'll show that this relativism when it excludes the union of the relations is contradictory.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:
So I'd like those who can and are willing to engage on this matter to join in me in thinking and creating an understanding on this matter.
Tycho, I may be late to this party but here is my small kamchango: I define morality as the setting of boundaries, between what I consider good and evil. But I have also come to appreciate that in many respects, this is a false boundary and it applies only to me. This is quite helpful when it comes to appreciating other people's morality or lack thereof. I have had the good luck, or bad, as you may see it, to encounter people or situations where practically every moral principle I hold dear is inverted. Where taking human life, stealing, rape, blasphemy etc are morally upheld as good. Where then would I stand to judge or condemn? My advice is 'just relax.' It is a relative Universe after all. If there's an abused expression then it's that of a 'relative universe'. 'Universe' has singularity about it. 'Relative' has multiplicity in it. So your expression makes sense only when the multiple reduces to singularity and vice versa. That's the crux of morality. Morality goes beyond setting boundaries or making judgements. Per chance, have you ever looked into the mystery of the Baghavad Gita? Story begins in a battle field, where murder is imminent. Let's take a practical example, how does terrorism feature in your moral conception? Relative Universe, singularity... I'll skip that as I believe we clobbered that horse to death sometime back. Baghvad Gita, I am ignorant on this score but always happy to learn. Please share. Terrorism...in my morality balance sheet, this one ranks firmly in the negative column. It is wrong. But then you have heard the saying 'one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.' My understanding of terrorism therefore may surprise you, or maybe not. I hold an extreme liberal view that the ultimate destiny of any human being is absolute autonomy. Where one may only give over such autonomy to another freely and without coercion. Terrorism, of the exploding kind, is only one extreme of events that attempt to truncate such autonomy. Therefore it is immoral. But similarly most religion is a form of terrorism too, as is government, parenting...heck, much of society. You are a terrorist Tycho, of the intellectual kind. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:Lotus ,,, the flower. Hhhmmm!
The 'recipe' could be both.
What is this 'burden of life'? And why is it heavy? The burden of life is essentially the quest for meaning in contradictory experience. It's Man knowing good and evil trying to maximize on good without avail. It's heavy because though there's toil and clamor the end is never achieved. It's Sysiphus trying to roll an ever growing rock up the mountain only to be overwhelmed by the weight of the rock. Enlightenment, the recipe, is to stop rolling the rock. Then everything becomes light. What makes is a 'contradictory experience'? Are not the 'contradictions' merely 'sequences'? The contradictions are a result of how cognition develops and the conflict it raises with our nature. Piaget provides us with a picture of what happens in the developing human. Other psychologists provide us with insights on how the developing human understands and relates with the world. Yes, it's a sequence, but the sequence is faulty. Then these 'contradictions' are not really 'contradictions'. What could be perceived as a 'contradiction' by one may not be so to another. IS this not relativism? Why are we reinventing the wheel? Cannot we learn from the French? These contradictions are really contradictions @muriel. For clarity let's do this, using what we've said, show how the 'relativism' doesn't lead to contradiction. For me I'll show that this relativism when it excludes the union of the relations is contradictory. Tough assignment, that. After you.
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