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PCEA vs Kikuyu Kiama
hardwood
#81 Posted : Monday, June 04, 2018 3:11:50 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Kaigangio wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
@Lolest wacha kumanganga and stick to the topic! From what I have explained above about the admission and working of the Ciaama cia Athuri could you please point out what these Ciamas do that the church does not do.
By the way, circumcision of girls has never been and was never an agenda in Ciama activities and deliberations and was never dealt with at Ciama level.

That part which you've not mentioned. The part for offering sacrifices to ancestors.

That's worship.


That is what the PCEA church young pastors want you to believe but all that is nonsense or rubbish to be precise.

There is no one time when the Agikuyu people made offerings to the ancestors...never did.
Any offering/sacrifices that were directed to Ngai (God) or that required God's intervention were done to God and only to God Alone under a Mugumo tree and only under a Mugumo tree.
Any other ritual or ceremony that necessitated the slaughtering of a sheep was only directed at that particular event and could be carried out anywhere else in the bush either under a tree or on an open space.

The Agikuyu "pastors" who performed these sacrifices (that were directed towards God) were not any ordinary people picked from nowhere and planted there like the church does. These were people who had been picked from Ciama cia Athuri and who had undergone all the stages of Kiama hierachy and were known to be thorough and just in their judgements, people who had won community and Ciama accolades from their past achievements both as parents and leaders within the community, people whose integrity could not be questioned, people who had already finished family task of bearing any more children as in they were old (over 70 years). The mantle was passed on to these people not by the Ciama but their predicessors who were also Ciama members.



Very well put. Our african societies were well structured, well governed and well functioning for hundreds (or is it thousands?) of years - politically, judicially, religiously etc before the mzungu landed on our shores about 100yrs ago and demonized our way of life.
masukuma
#82 Posted : Monday, June 04, 2018 5:25:52 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
hardwood wrote:
masukuma wrote:
While humans groups differ slightly biologically - the biggest differences happen to occur in the myths they intersubjectively choose to believe in. That's it... tofauti ya mwafrica na mzungu ni hiyo tu!the state that mzungu lived was no different from that ya mwafrican 1500 years ago. We were exactly the same for 65,000 years! The biological differences between mzungu and mwafrica did not start juzi. Tofauti ya Mkenya na Mtanzania ni hiyo pia... the myths we choose to believe in. Tofauti ya state of mkenya na mtanzania sio 100 years old. Same as the state of Kenyans and South Sudanese or Somali. Mjaluo wa Kenya and MDinka have very little biological difference but the myths they choose/forced/grew up with are different and it explains their differences. So the stark difference even in Kenya between one group of people (can be a family or an ethnic community or brothers are the myths they believe in). We do agree that some people are 'ahead' of others on some fronts. Denmark for example is a much nicer place to be when you are an old person than south sudan. All these differences are caused by 'culture' - the collection of myths we live our lives by. Unlike the differences in the biology of people - the differences in culture are HUGE... there are SUPERIOR CULTURES and there are RETROGRESSIVE CULTURES. The very fact that we have 'our' culture is a myth... enforced by these cultures to help them stay relevant and propagate. Each culture that did not have an effective 'propagation' mechanism -died when the guy who imagined it died! Once others choose to believe it... the culture lives on... if we don't - it dies ... most of these myths were indoctrinated to us when we didn't know better - when young and impressionable. The only way a RETROGRESSIVE MYTH can be propagated to a person who knows better is through guilt! But let's not fall for it! let's be held at ransom to hold on to what is demonstrably inferior and self-serving JUST BECAUSE OUR ANCESTORS COULD NOT COME UP WITH A BETTER MYTH especially because we know better myths exist! You are not your ancestor! It's quite likely that the ancestor who first dreamed what you were being guilt tripped into believing and enforcing knew what you know - they would not come up with what they came up with. They can be excused for their ignorance - you cannot!


What a load of bullcrap you have written up there.

Why? it's very factual that what we 'believe' is responsible for what we do! the reason people here are busy convincing each other on benefits of 'Ciama' and not on the law of gravity is simply because the existence of 'Ciamas' is related to the number of people who believe in them and their benefits. I tend to think that I know where I offended you... I called your beliefs a 'myth' and you don't want to believe it is. A myth is just an idea or a set of ideas that has no manifestation in nature. It's something we believe... What we believe in and act upon is not just related to things like Ciamas... it's something as widely accepted as time management or gender (being a man or a woman rather sex - than being 'male' or 'female')! when some people decided that time management was a good idea and they acted on it - they beat other people who did not have that as an idea! Time management is an 'idea'... it exists in our heads.... but people who believe and acted on it achieved 'more' of a certain 'type of thing' than those who didn't and in that way... it is more 'superior' towards the achieving of that 'type of thing' than not managing your time.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
hardwood
#83 Posted : Monday, June 04, 2018 5:31:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Since not all okuyos belong to PCEA but worship elsewhere, what is the opinion of the other churches eg catholic, anglican, baptist, seventh day, AIC, Wanjiru's Jesus is Alive, Church ile ya "mum and dad" aka kiuna's etc?
Lolest!
#84 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2018 9:08:47 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
hardwood wrote:
Just why should the culture of a man from muranga or Siaya be considered inferior to the culture of a man from Manchester England? All humans are equal and none should dictate to the other.

Church hasn't said your culture is inferior. They'd have opposed culture in entirety but they haven't. Their issue is the worship element.
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Lolest!
#85 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2018 9:48:59 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
Ahsante sana Kaigangio. This desecration of a beautiful original culture by people who barely know anything about it really pains me.

Interestingly, you'll see the same fellas accepting dowry for their daughters, or even participating and enjoying such ceremonies. They will circumcise their sons. But they will insult the elders with their relentless intellectual and religious bullshit......implying that elders shouldn't follow their own culture.

Nobody is opposing Kikuyu culture. If they were, there wouldn't be Gikuyu services in PCEA. Because language one of the biggest parts of culture if not the biggest(funny that many athuuri in the kiama have children who cannot speak Gikuyu!)

Culture is not what your great great grandpa used to do in 1860. It's what seems normal now in your community. A polygamous man for instance was normal, it no longer is. Taking tea is now normal, it was unknown then. Living in thatched huts was normal, now a masonry house with mabati is the norm. Our forefathers wore animal skins,they ate yams, cassava etc; now we take ugali, rice, chapo. Wife inheritance was expected(refer to what happened to Johnstone Kamau son of Muigai when his father passed).

Some of the things that used to happen were very good. We would love to go back to the good things. There are also things which were not ok. Like female cut. I'm yet to see anyone in the cultural renaissance saying they're ready to go back to the cut! No one wants it! Why and it was part of what the ancestors were doing? Because we know better! Because it's no longer part of culture!!

Culture is more complex than mburi cia kiama!
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
Wakanyugi
#86 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2018 12:43:22 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
hardwood wrote:
Since not all okuyos belong to PCEA but worship elsewhere, what is the opinion of the other churches eg catholic, anglican, baptist, seventh day, AIC, Wanjiru's Jesus is Alive, Church ile ya "mum and dad" aka kiuna's etc?


I understand some Kikuyu Catholic priests have paid "mburi ya Kiama." So it seems their Church is OK with it. Even the PCEA will have to somehow walk back this foolishness. The backlash is beginning to tell, if the noise from vernacular radio stations is an indicator. .
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Mtu Biz
#87 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2018 12:44:36 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
May be off the specific topic.

Sola Scriptura


Kaigangio
#88 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2018 12:50:26 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/27/2007
Posts: 2,768
Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
Ahsante sana Kaigangio. This desecration of a beautiful original culture by people who barely know anything about it really pains me.

Interestingly, you'll see the same fellas accepting dowry for their daughters, or even participating and enjoying such ceremonies. They will circumcise their sons. But they will insult the elders with their relentless intellectual and religious bullshit......implying that elders shouldn't follow their own culture.

Nobody is opposing Kikuyu culture. If they were, there wouldn't be Gikuyu services in PCEA. Because language one of the biggest parts of culture if not the biggest(funny that many athuuri in the kiama have children who cannot speak Gikuyu!)

Culture is not what your great great grandpa used to do in 1860. It's what seems normal now in your community. A polygamous man for instance was normal, it no longer is. Taking tea is now normal, it was unknown then. Living in thatched huts was normal, now a masonry house with mabati is the norm. Our forefathers wore animal skins,they ate yams, cassava etc; now we take ugali, rice, chapo. Wife inheritance was expected(refer to what happened to Johnstone Kamau son of Muigai when his father passed).

Some of the things that used to happen were very good. We would love to go back to the good things. There are also things which were not ok. Like female cut. I'm yet to see anyone in the cultural renaissance saying they're ready to go back to the cut! No one wants it! Why and it was part of what the ancestors were doing? Because we know better! Because it's no longer part of culture!!

Culture is more complex than mburi cia kiama!


@Lolest...If there is one person who is very well devoid of the Agikuyu cultural and traditional structures knowhow, it is you. You know absolutely nothing and that is why you are telling us that Agikuyu culture is complex. It is not and never has it been.
Just look for an old knowledgeable man and ask him to advise you on the same. Don't rely on your church or social media. They will tell you only the bad side of it that they have heard from the church and the western media.

Two questions for you,

1. Do you know why the Agikuyu girls were being circumcised and what was the procedure before the "cut" ceremony?

2. Specifically which part of the female genital was cut and how much of it was removed?
...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
2012
#89 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2018 1:44:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
Kaigangio wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
Quote:
Ahsante sana Kaigangio. This desecration of a beautiful original culture by people who barely know anything about it really pains me.

Interestingly, you'll see the same fellas accepting dowry for their daughters, or even participating and enjoying such ceremonies. They will circumcise their sons. But they will insult the elders with their relentless intellectual and religious bullshit......implying that elders shouldn't follow their own culture.

Nobody is opposing Kikuyu culture. If they were, there wouldn't be Gikuyu services in PCEA. Because language one of the biggest parts of culture if not the biggest(funny that many athuuri in the kiama have children who cannot speak Gikuyu!)

Culture is not what your great great grandpa used to do in 1860. It's what seems normal now in your community. A polygamous man for instance was normal, it no longer is. Taking tea is now normal, it was unknown then. Living in thatched huts was normal, now a masonry house with mabati is the norm. Our forefathers wore animal skins,they ate yams, cassava etc; now we take ugali, rice, chapo. Wife inheritance was expected(refer to what happened to Johnstone Kamau son of Muigai when his father passed).

Some of the things that used to happen were very good. We would love to go back to the good things. There are also things which were not ok. Like female cut. I'm yet to see anyone in the cultural renaissance saying they're ready to go back to the cut! No one wants it! Why and it was part of what the ancestors were doing? Because we know better! Because it's no longer part of culture!!

Culture is more complex than mburi cia kiama!


@Lolest...If there is one person who is very well devoid of the Agikuyu cultural and traditional structures knowhow, it is you. You know absolutely nothing and that is why you are telling us that Agikuyu culture is complex. It is not and never has it been.
Just look for an old knowledgeable man and ask him to advise you on the same. Don't rely on your church or social media. They will tell you only the bad side of it that they have heard from the church and the western media.

Two questions for you,

1. Do you know why the Agikuyu girls were being circumcised and what was the procedure before the "cut" ceremony?

2. Specifically which part of the female genital was cut and how much of it was removed?


I think when you tell her to look for an old man, it confirms her statement that the younger generation do not agree with the old customs.

I personally respect the Kikuyu culture and I know most of it but it's very hard to pass on to our kids in the urban setting. So I personally don't teach my kids but I tell them about it and explain when we're in a place where a ceremony is taking place. What I think is the culture will soon be ceremonial only. Whether that's good or bad is out with the jury...

BBI will solve it
:)
Lolest!
#90 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2018 6:29:42 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
@gizzard, that I got from Jomo's book. I hope you won't tell me that I should ignore it. It was written by a man who was heavily pro-conservation of the African way of life.

But my point is, these people saying they're taking Africans back to their culture are misleading us. Culture is what you guys do. It has been infused with mzungu ways but now that's our culture.
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