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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:We have always talked about justice, for example: you know Hitler, he killed 6,000,000 Jews. Let us say he was to live forever, today if you arrest him, what is the punishment you can give? What punishment can the law give him in this world? You can only give him a Maximum one death! What about the balance 5,999,999 people he killed? You can only justify one person.
But in the Ahera, in the hereafter, the Creator of this universe (Allah is His name in Arabic) says in the Quran surah Nisaa chapter 4:52 "Lo! Those who who disbelieve and reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."
So if the Creator of this world wants to burn Sharon or Hitler 6,000,000 times He can do it. If Allah wants to burn him 10,000 times He can do it in Ahera. People cannot do it in this world. Because in this world, if police catches, you can compensate a maximum one death.
So we must die for Justice to be done! Yeah -seems like a great way for a lay man to explain eternal torture. I have better questions - why not just keep a skin that does not get consumed but feels pain throughout? secondly - why not just evoke the pain receptors and make someone feel pain without burning them? pain that you feel is a response to stimuli... it's really all in your brain... your skin does not feel pain - your brain feels pain. That is why people with certain spinal injuries cannot feel pain regardless of how much damage you do to them. You can burn them and give them new skins ad infinitum and it would mean squat. Again... I know that the brain regulates itself to new realities on the senses - for example when you feel cold first time you jump into a cold pool but if you stay like that - "unazoea". Or if you walk into a stinking toilet - you are hit by a repulsive stench... ukikaa kaa hapo - "unazoea" harufu. Even morticians and chokora's don't smell. Indian Yogis lie on nails and hung themselves using hooks and feel little pain why? "wamezoea" - it follows that pia moto ya jehanamu will be the same if it's a real thing. 1. Why not keep skin: it is God's choice to replace it instead of keeping 2. Yes the pain you feel is a response to simuli form the skin transmitted to the brain, so that implies you will have a brain even in the hereafter, otherwise how will you understand the judgement 3. Brain regulates itself when the Creator wants that to. This is his mercies to us humans here on earth. But on the ultimate judgement the Creator will make the brain feel the stimuli na hautazoea 4. So moto ya jahanam will be the real thing! In fact, it is reported that the fire on this earth is 70 times cooler than jahanam. I am pointing to the fiction of it all - if the writer of the book had know what we know now and wanted to explain the most terrible torture he could imagine - he would have done what I did BUT because all he knew was 'skin feels pain' the best he could come up with is what you quoted. the 70 times heat is also another one - what is 'fire' on earth? wood fire? coal fire? fire on the flame of an oxy-acetylene flame? the temperature of a quark-gluon plasma? 70 * what? Even the most fierce fire of this world is 70 fold cooler than the fire of Hell. Malik related to me from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: "The fire of the children of Adam which they kindle is a seventieth part of the fire of Jahannam." They said, "Messenger of Allah, this fire is certainly enough." Then He said: "That fire is sixty-nine times greater." (Malik, Book 57, Hadith 57.1.1) @masukums, try to control your arrogance. Otherwise, you may discover so much when you die, and I said we all will die. Almighty God can do what you cannot imagine. See what Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego said to the king in Daniel 3:17 "If it be so, our God... is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace..." why the ad hominems? address the matter and chill out with the threats - it does not help to quote text from the same book someone is disputing in the first place. so answer the question - was it the hottest fire back then or does now and future exploits count? i.e. 70 * X where X is the hottest 'fire' we come up with? Read my post again, you'll see the answer. Here: "the most fierce fire of this world is 70 fold cooler than the fire of Hell." So when scientist discover the hottest, which may not even the last discovery, that would still be 70x cooler. So you understand now? And as for quoting, we have been down this road before. And i told you I quote because that is what you believe in. So if you are arguing against what you believe in, then I can't help you. My point on this quote is that God Almighty is able! so it's a shifting goal post... scientists should chill out then... the current hell temperatures are 380 trillion degrees centigrade... yikes! each time their curious minds shift X upwards hell gets hotter! Not like that. It is the other way round: X degrees scientists have discovered so, may not be the cap... so 70X is still less than jahanam Z. It is not a shifting goal, rather it is 70X <= Z Let me repeat it again for you @masukuma, which I think you missed. There are so many scientific facts in the Quran which have now been proved by Science. The verses came down more than 1400 years ago to unlearned prophet who didn't have any scientific knowledge... and the verses have now been proved. None of the statements have been disproved. This discoveries prove that the Quran is one book with no doubt, with a challenge to those who want to disprove it, and many have tried in vain, many years... I said something last time that you never quite got... even after broadly accepting your embryology story ... masukuma wrote:My question is do MANY FACTS "carry" questionable stories? are FACTS democratic? When you have 99% FACTS do they mean that the 1% questionable occurrences get validated by the 99% FACTS? And that is why I asked what your take on this little tale is Quote:Yesterday, I was watching the Matiba Funeral Service on TV and when I was glued on it - I saw my child jump on top of the sofa and fly around the room One should not say 'disapproved' while talking about a book with characters such as Adam, Eve,Noah and Moses e.t.c. There is nothing the Quran has stated that has been proved false. As proof for you, the Quran mentions many scientific facts, long before they were discovered by modern science. If 99% of scientific facts has been confirmed, it does not mean the 1% remaining are validated automatically, but it means they remained to be confirmed. But the 1% none of them has been proved false. But I said you will not prove anything in the Quran false, even your Adam, Eve, Noah and Moses etc. This confirms that it came form the creator of the universe. As for your seeing your son flying around the room, that is hallucination, or just an imagination.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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The fire you're talking about is not scientific.
The Quran also shares the same claim with other traditions. Most plants and herbs used by traditional societies have been proven to be scientifically sound.
So what you're ascribing to the Quran is neither unique nor relevant...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:We have always talked about justice, for example: you know Hitler, he killed 6,000,000 Jews. Let us say he was to live forever, today if you arrest him, what is the punishment you can give? What punishment can the law give him in this world? You can only give him a Maximum one death! What about the balance 5,999,999 people he killed? You can only justify one person.
But in the Ahera, in the hereafter, the Creator of this universe (Allah is His name in Arabic) says in the Quran surah Nisaa chapter 4:52 "Lo! Those who who disbelieve and reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."
So if the Creator of this world wants to burn Sharon or Hitler 6,000,000 times He can do it. If Allah wants to burn him 10,000 times He can do it in Ahera. People cannot do it in this world. Because in this world, if police catches, you can compensate a maximum one death.
So we must die for Justice to be done! Yeah -seems like a great way for a lay man to explain eternal torture. I have better questions - why not just keep a skin that does not get consumed but feels pain throughout? secondly - why not just evoke the pain receptors and make someone feel pain without burning them? pain that you feel is a response to stimuli... it's really all in your brain... your skin does not feel pain - your brain feels pain. That is why people with certain spinal injuries cannot feel pain regardless of how much damage you do to them. You can burn them and give them new skins ad infinitum and it would mean squat. Again... I know that the brain regulates itself to new realities on the senses - for example when you feel cold first time you jump into a cold pool but if you stay like that - "unazoea". Or if you walk into a stinking toilet - you are hit by a repulsive stench... ukikaa kaa hapo - "unazoea" harufu. Even morticians and chokora's don't smell. Indian Yogis lie on nails and hung themselves using hooks and feel little pain why? "wamezoea" - it follows that pia moto ya jehanamu will be the same if it's a real thing. 1. Why not keep skin: it is God's choice to replace it instead of keeping 2. Yes the pain you feel is a response to simuli form the skin transmitted to the brain, so that implies you will have a brain even in the hereafter, otherwise how will you understand the judgement 3. Brain regulates itself when the Creator wants that to. This is his mercies to us humans here on earth. But on the ultimate judgement the Creator will make the brain feel the stimuli na hautazoea 4. So moto ya jahanam will be the real thing! In fact, it is reported that the fire on this earth is 70 times cooler than jahanam. I am pointing to the fiction of it all - if the writer of the book had know what we know now and wanted to explain the most terrible torture he could imagine - he would have done what I did BUT because all he knew was 'skin feels pain' the best he could come up with is what you quoted. the 70 times heat is also another one - what is 'fire' on earth? wood fire? coal fire? fire on the flame of an oxy-acetylene flame? the temperature of a quark-gluon plasma? 70 * what? Even the most fierce fire of this world is 70 fold cooler than the fire of Hell. Malik related to me from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: "The fire of the children of Adam which they kindle is a seventieth part of the fire of Jahannam." They said, "Messenger of Allah, this fire is certainly enough." Then He said: "That fire is sixty-nine times greater." (Malik, Book 57, Hadith 57.1.1) @masukums, try to control your arrogance. Otherwise, you may discover so much when you die, and I said we all will die. Almighty God can do what you cannot imagine. See what Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego said to the king in Daniel 3:17 "If it be so, our God... is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace..." why the ad hominems? address the matter and chill out with the threats - it does not help to quote text from the same book someone is disputing in the first place. so answer the question - was it the hottest fire back then or does now and future exploits count? i.e. 70 * X where X is the hottest 'fire' we come up with? Read my post again, you'll see the answer. Here: "the most fierce fire of this world is 70 fold cooler than the fire of Hell." So when scientist discover the hottest, which may not even the last discovery, that would still be 70x cooler. So you understand now? And as for quoting, we have been down this road before. And i told you I quote because that is what you believe in. So if you are arguing against what you believe in, then I can't help you. My point on this quote is that God Almighty is able! so it's a shifting goal post... scientists should chill out then... the current hell temperatures are 380 trillion degrees centigrade... yikes! each time their curious minds shift X upwards hell gets hotter! Not like that. It is the other way round: X degrees scientists have discovered so, may not be the cap... so 70X is still less than jahanam Z. It is not a shifting goal, rather it is 70X <= Z Let me repeat it again for you @masukuma, which I think you missed. There are so many scientific facts in the Quran which have now been proved by Science. The verses came down more than 1400 years ago to unlearned prophet who didn't have any scientific knowledge... and the verses have now been proved. None of the statements have been disproved. This discoveries prove that the Quran is one book with no doubt, with a challenge to those who want to disprove it, and many have tried in vain, many years... I said something last time that you never quite got... even after broadly accepting your embryology story ... masukuma wrote:My question is do MANY FACTS "carry" questionable stories? are FACTS democratic? When you have 99% FACTS do they mean that the 1% questionable occurrences get validated by the 99% FACTS? And that is why I asked what your take on this little tale is Quote:Yesterday, I was watching the Matiba Funeral Service on TV and when I was glued on it - I saw my child jump on top of the sofa and fly around the room One should not say 'disapproved' while talking about a book with characters such as Adam, Eve,Noah and Moses e.t.c. There is nothing the Quran has stated that has been proved false. As proof for you, the Quran mentions many scientific facts, long before they were discovered by modern science. If 99% of scientific facts has been confirmed, it does not mean the 1% remaining are validated automatically, but it means they remained to be confirmed. But the 1% none of them has been proved false. But I said you will not prove anything in the Quran false, even your Adam, Eve, Noah and Moses etc. This confirms that it came form the creator of the universe. As for your seeing your son flying around the room, that is hallucination, or just an imagination. ces't possible... me add... maybe I made it up! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:I said something last time that you never quite got... even after broadly accepting your embryology story ... masukuma wrote:My question is do MANY FACTS "carry" questionable stories? are FACTS democratic? When you have 99% FACTS do they mean that the 1% questionable occurrences get validated by the 99% FACTS? And that is why I asked what your take on this little tale is Quote:Yesterday, I was watching the Matiba Funeral Service on TV and when I was glued on it - I saw my child jump on top of the sofa and fly around the room One should not say 'disapproved' while talking about a book with characters such as Adam, Eve,Noah and Moses e.t.c. There is nothing the Quran has stated that has been proved false. As proof for you, the Quran mentions many scientific facts, long before they were discovered by modern science. If 99% of scientific facts has been confirmed, it does not mean the 1% remaining are validated automatically, but it means they remained to be confirmed. But the 1% none of them has been proved false. But I said you will not prove anything in the Quran false, even your Adam, Eve, Noah and Moses etc. This confirms that it came form the creator of the universe. As for your seeing your son flying around the room, that is hallucination, or just an imagination. ces't possible... me add... maybe I made it up! I hope I have answered your question. You see, your mind can explore. It can even imagine right now your child on a trampoline... but actually in real is in class right now. All that is your imagination.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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tycho wrote:The fire you're talking about is not scientific.
The Quran also shares the same claim with other traditions. Most plants and herbs used by traditional societies have been proven to be scientifically sound.
So what you're ascribing to the Quran is neither unique nor relevant... Oh sure it is fire... as scientific as your body in the hereafter. Take these two verses for examples: “when musa said to his family: surely i see fire; i will bring to you from it some news, or i will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves” (Quran 27:7) “and as for those who transgress, their abode is the fire; whenever they desire to go forth from it they shall be brought back into it, and it will be said to them: taste the chastisement of the fire which you called a lie” (Quran 32:20) And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?" (Quran 2:80)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:The fire you're talking about is not scientific.
The Quran also shares the same claim with other traditions. Most plants and herbs used by traditional societies have been proven to be scientifically sound.
So what you're ascribing to the Quran is neither unique nor relevant... Oh sure it is fire... as scientific as your body in the hereafter. Take these two verses for examples: “when musa said to his family: surely i see fire; i will bring to you from it some news, or i will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves” (Quran 27:7) “and as for those who transgress, their abode is the fire; whenever they desire to go forth from it they shall be brought back into it, and it will be said to them: taste the chastisement of the fire which you called a lie” (Quran 32:20) And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?" (Quran 2:80) The word 'fire' is there. But the meaning you've given to 'fire' isn't there. You are conflating meanings and probably using them inappropriately.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:The fire you're talking about is not scientific.
The Quran also shares the same claim with other traditions. Most plants and herbs used by traditional societies have been proven to be scientifically sound.
So what you're ascribing to the Quran is neither unique nor relevant... Oh sure it is fire... as scientific as your body in the hereafter. Take these two verses for examples: “when musa said to his family: surely i see fire; i will bring to you from it some news, or i will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves” (Quran 27:7) “and as for those who transgress, their abode is the fire; whenever they desire to go forth from it they shall be brought back into it, and it will be said to them: taste the chastisement of the fire which you called a lie” (Quran 32:20) And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?" (Quran 2:80) The word 'fire' is there. But the meaning you've given to 'fire' isn't there. You are conflating meanings and probably using them inappropriately. Yes, the word "fire" is there, and it is in English. I don't know what language you are talking.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:I said something last time that you never quite got... even after broadly accepting your embryology story ... masukuma wrote:My question is do MANY FACTS "carry" questionable stories? are FACTS democratic? When you have 99% FACTS do they mean that the 1% questionable occurrences get validated by the 99% FACTS? And that is why I asked what your take on this little tale is Quote:Yesterday, I was watching the Matiba Funeral Service on TV and when I was glued on it - I saw my child jump on top of the sofa and fly around the room One should not say 'disapproved' while talking about a book with characters such as Adam, Eve,Noah and Moses e.t.c. There is nothing the Quran has stated that has been proved false. As proof for you, the Quran mentions many scientific facts, long before they were discovered by modern science. If 99% of scientific facts has been confirmed, it does not mean the 1% remaining are validated automatically, but it means they remained to be confirmed. But the 1% none of them has been proved false. But I said you will not prove anything in the Quran false, even your Adam, Eve, Noah and Moses etc. This confirms that it came form the creator of the universe. As for your seeing your son flying around the room, that is hallucination, or just an imagination. ces't possible... me add... maybe I made it up! I hope I have answered your question. You see, your mind can explore. It can even imagine right now your child on a trampoline... but actually in real is in class right now. All that is your imagination. All those are perfect answers!! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:The fire you're talking about is not scientific.
The Quran also shares the same claim with other traditions. Most plants and herbs used by traditional societies have been proven to be scientifically sound.
So what you're ascribing to the Quran is neither unique nor relevant... Oh sure it is fire... as scientific as your body in the hereafter. Take these two verses for examples: “when musa said to his family: surely i see fire; i will bring to you from it some news, or i will bring to you therefrom a burning firebrand so that you may warm yourselves” (Quran 27:7) “and as for those who transgress, their abode is the fire; whenever they desire to go forth from it they shall be brought back into it, and it will be said to them: taste the chastisement of the fire which you called a lie” (Quran 32:20) And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?" (Quran 2:80) The word 'fire' is there. But the meaning you've given to 'fire' isn't there. You are conflating meanings and probably using them inappropriately. Yes, the word "fire" is there, and it is in English. I don't know what language you are talking. Haha. It's perfectly okay to accept ignorance. At least you can start to do something about it.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/17/2009 Posts: 1,049
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masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:AlphDoti wrote:masukuma wrote:I said something last time that you never quite got... even after broadly accepting your embryology story ... masukuma wrote:My question is do MANY FACTS "carry" questionable stories? are FACTS democratic? When you have 99% FACTS do they mean that the 1% questionable occurrences get validated by the 99% FACTS? And that is why I asked what your take on this little tale is Quote:Yesterday, I was watching the Matiba Funeral Service on TV and when I was glued on it - I saw my child jump on top of the sofa and fly around the room One should not say 'disapproved' while talking about a book with characters such as Adam, Eve,Noah and Moses e.t.c. There is nothing the Quran has stated that has been proved false. As proof for you, the Quran mentions many scientific facts, long before they were discovered by modern science. If 99% of scientific facts has been confirmed, it does not mean the 1% remaining are validated automatically, but it means they remained to be confirmed. But the 1% none of them has been proved false. But I said you will not prove anything in the Quran false, even your Adam, Eve, Noah and Moses etc. This confirms that it came form the creator of the universe. As for your seeing your son flying around the room, that is hallucination, or just an imagination. ces't possible... me add... maybe I made it up! I hope I have answered your question. You see, your mind can explore. It can even imagine right now your child on a trampoline... but actually in real is in class right now. All that is your imagination. All those are perfect answers!!  Debating a certain guy is a complete waste of time. Just as absolute power corrupts leaders, so does absolute fanaticism blind the people from logic
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