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Why investing in the NSE is fool's gold and a waste
Rank: Member Joined: 3/26/2012 Posts: 830
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MugundaMan wrote:S.Mutaga III wrote:Just because you tried investing and failed doesn't mean that it is a fool's errand. This post is written from your personal perspective and shouldn't be generalized. You are probably a bad investor but an outstanding manager/entrepreneur which explains why you failed in stocks but succeeded in business. Not everyone is like you and that is why there are many ways of investing so that everyone can find whatever works best for him or her. A successful NSE investor might make a post claiming that entrepreneurship is a fool's errand, or property investing is a fool's errand. You see, it boils down to what you know best and where you find your success. Some people claim buying a matatu is a fool's errand, but others have made a kill from the same business. I can't code, does it make computer programming a bad career/fool's errand??
Bottomline: Just because you did not succeed in something doesn't warrant you calling it a fool's errand. Others have made it in the same. Well spoken. Same applies to dustbowling. But returns never lie. How much has even a well above average picker on the NSE made over the past decade? My neighbour Ngash age 75 has probably made more by buying and holding several tens of acres in dust bowl over the past ten years than half the investors in NSE combined over the same period. And he is illiterate! Every hustle has its pros. Personally, I believe that stocks offer the highest return on investment if you know what you are doing, compared to other asset classes. The ease of entry and exit is amazing, and stocks are more passive than real estate. With a sizable diversified portfolio of stocks bought at high dividend yields (9%+), you can even match rental property yields if the dividend grows. A successful man is not he who gets the best, it is he who makes the best from what he gets.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,212 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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S.Mutaga III wrote:
Every hustle has its pros. Personally, I believe that stocks offer the highest return on investment if you know what you are doing, compared to other asset classes. The ease of entry and exit is amazing, and stocks are more passive than real estate. With a sizable diversified portfolio of stocks bought at high dividend yields (9%+), you can even match rental property yields if the dividend grows.
If I hear this statement one more time I might have to get rib surgery  Where do people pull this platitude from (always without proof). You are talking of a paltry 9%, or even 20% total return - something most stock pickers would salivate at -if you are lucky) as if it is a big deal What ROI does a hawker on the street who buys a bale of ladies jeans trousers for 14k that contains 120 pieces that he sells for 400 bob a piece (all gone in a month or less) with little to no overhead earn? Saf con lends for as little as a day at about 7.5% interest (disguised as a processing fee) how much ROI is that for them annualized? (excluding the fact that they compound the monies paid back through further lending over the course of the year, further turbo boosting their returns!) Mugundaman bought a prime mbloti in dustbowl from a drunkard at an approximate price of 9m an acre a few months ago. The value as of sasa hivi is easily 14m an acre. How much ROI is that annualized?? Jameni, even a kiosk owner who buys purus (is this term still used these days?) at 100 bob a packet and sells the batch individually for 200 bob gross makes more of a return than a 9% pittance! "Stock markets offer the highest return on investment".. on what planet? 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2007 Posts: 2,074 Location: Lagos, Nigeria
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MugundaMan wrote:S.Mutaga III wrote:
Every hustle has its pros. Personally, I believe that stocks offer the highest return on investment if you know what you are doing, compared to other asset classes. The ease of entry and exit is amazing, and stocks are more passive than real estate. With a sizable diversified portfolio of stocks bought at high dividend yields (9%+), you can even match rental property yields if the dividend grows.
If I hear this statement one more time I might have to get rib surgery Where do people pull this platitude from (always without proof). You are talking of a paltry 9%, or even 20% total return - something most stock pickers would salivate at -if you are lucky) as if it is a big deal What ROI does a hawker on the street who buys a bale of ladies jeans trousers for 14k that contains 120 pieces that he sells for 400 bob a piece (all gone in a month or less) with little to no overhead earn? Saf con lends for as little as a day at about 7.5% interest (disguised as a processing fee) how much ROI is that for them annualized? (excluding the fact that they compound the monies paid back through further lending over the course of the year, further turbo boosting their returns!) Mugundaman bought a prime mbloti in dustbowl from a drunkard at an approximate price of 9m an acre a few months ago. The value as of sasa hivi is easily 14m an acre. How much ROI is that annualized?? Jameni, even a kiosk owner who buys purus (is this term still used these days?) at 100 bob a packet and sells the batch individually for 200 bob gross makes more of a return than a 9% pittance! "Stock markets offer the highest return on investment".. on what planet? @Mugundaman Your yardstick is out of point. Yes with 14k for 1 bail you can do that but with 28 bails at 376k, the story is different in terms of absolute returns and ability to sell all . Here more fixed cost is involved ....transportation, storage, shop space, or more overhead cost by constant harassment by other hawkers and city council of Nairobi. Its not so easy.....Even KRA will come in. MY THOUGHTS. The wazua spirit as members is to educate and inform and learn from others within the limit of what we know in any chosen area irrespective of our differences in tribes, nationalities, etc. .
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/26/2012 Posts: 830
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MugundaMan wrote:S.Mutaga III wrote:
Every hustle has its pros. Personally, I believe that stocks offer the highest return on investment if you know what you are doing, compared to other asset classes. The ease of entry and exit is amazing, and stocks are more passive than real estate. With a sizable diversified portfolio of stocks bought at high dividend yields (9%+), you can even match rental property yields if the dividend grows.
If I hear this statement one more time I might have to get rib surgery Where do people pull this platitude from (always without proof). As I said, you must be new here. Go through stocksmaster's threads from the past. You might learn a thing or two.
You are talking of a paltry 9%, or even 20% total return - something most stock pickers would salivate at -if you are lucky) as if it is a big deal What is 20% return compounded for say 5 years? Also, seasoned investors make much more than 20% a year in stocks.What ROI does a hawker on the street who buys a bale of ladies jeans trousers for 14k that contains 120 pieces that he sells for 400 bob a piece (all gone in a month or less) with little to no overhead earn? Seriously?? Are you trying to compare a hawker's ROI with that of an investor with millions?? If so, what ROI would that hawker get with 50 million to invest?? Also, why aren't you a hawker because obviously, his/her returns are better than what you get on your plots.Saf con lends for as little as a day at about 7.5% interest (disguised as a processing fee) how much ROI is that for them annualized? (excluding the fact that they compound the monies paid back through further lending over the course of the year, further turbo boosting their returns!) Have you considered the expenses Safcom pays? Taxes, salaries, etc. Have you considered the billions of shillings it has invested in that infrastructure and in security?? That 7.5% cannot be used to calculate ROI because it is a gross figure. Mugundaman bought a prime mbloti in dustbowl from a drunkard at an approximate price of 9m an acre a few months ago. The value as of sasa hivi is easily 14m an acre. How much ROI is that annualized?? How many months ago?? Can we verify?? Have you tried selling that land or are you relying on random figures quoted by brokers in the streets. How easy is it to sell? I also bought a plot eons ago at 2 million in 2014. Guess what, the best I can get from it is 4 million right now. 100% return, but after how many years???
Jameni, even a kiosk owner who buys purus (is this term still used these days?) at 100 bob a packet and sells the batch individually for 200 bob gross makes more of a return than a 9% pittance! Dude. If you start comparing people trading tens or hundreds of thousands with those investing millions, you can as well sell your land and invest in kiosks or hawking. Lead by example. The comparison is nonsensical. "Stock markets offer the highest return on investment".. on what planet? I understand your obsession with land. But you need to learn contextualization. When you start giving examples of hawkers and kiosk owners, and throwing figures like 7.5% without thinking whether they can be used to calculate ROI, you are really insulting people's intelligence here. After all, you should practice what you preach by selling your prime land and being a hawker because that is your line of reasoning. A successful man is not he who gets the best, it is he who makes the best from what he gets.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,212 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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S.Mutaga III wrote:MugundaMan wrote:S.Mutaga III wrote:
Every hustle has its pros. Personally, I believe that stocks offer the highest return on investment if you know what you are doing, compared to other asset classes. The ease of entry and exit is amazing, and stocks are more passive than real estate. With a sizable diversified portfolio of stocks bought at high dividend yields (9%+), you can even match rental property yields if the dividend grows.
If I hear this statement one more time I might have to get rib surgery Where do people pull this platitude from (always without proof). As I said, you must be new here. Go through stocksmaster's threads from the past. You might learn a thing or two.
You are talking of a paltry 9%, or even 20% total return - something most stock pickers would salivate at -if you are lucky) as if it is a big deal What is 20% return compounded for say 5 years? Also, seasoned investors make much more than 20% a year in stocks.What ROI does a hawker on the street who buys a bale of ladies jeans trousers for 14k that contains 120 pieces that he sells for 400 bob a piece (all gone in a month or less) with little to no overhead earn? Seriously?? Are you trying to compare a hawker's ROI with that of an investor with millions?? If so, what ROI would that hawker get with 50 million to invest?? Also, why aren't you a hawker because obviously, his/her returns are better than what you get on your plots.Saf con lends for as little as a day at about 7.5% interest (disguised as a processing fee) how much ROI is that for them annualized? (excluding the fact that they compound the monies paid back through further lending over the course of the year, further turbo boosting their returns!) Have you considered the expenses Safcom pays? Taxes, salaries, etc. Have you considered the billions of shillings it has invested in that infrastructure and in security?? That 7.5% cannot be used to calculate ROI because it is a gross figure. Mugundaman bought a prime mbloti in dustbowl from a drunkard at an approximate price of 9m an acre a few months ago. The value as of sasa hivi is easily 14m an acre. How much ROI is that annualized?? How many months ago?? Can we verify?? Have you tried selling that land or are you relying on random figures quoted by brokers in the streets. How easy is it to sell? I also bought a plot eons ago at 2 million in 2014. Guess what, the best I can get from it is 4 million right now. 100% return, but after how many years???
Jameni, even a kiosk owner who buys purus (is this term still used these days?) at 100 bob a packet and sells the batch individually for 200 bob gross makes more of a return than a 9% pittance! Dude. If you start comparing people trading tens or hundreds of thousands with those investing millions, you can as well sell your land and invest in kiosks or hawking. Lead by example. The comparison is nonsensical. "Stock markets offer the highest return on investment".. on what planet? I understand your obsession with land. But you need to learn contextualization. When you start giving examples of hawkers and kiosk owners, and throwing figures like 7.5% without thinking whether they can be used to calculate ROI, you are really insulting people's intelligence here. After all, you should practice what you preach by selling your prime land and being a hawker because that is your line of reasoning. *response loading*
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,212 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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young wrote:
Yes with 14k for 1 bail you can do that but with 28 bails at 376k, the story is different in terms of absolute returns and ability to sell all . Here more fixed cost is involved ....transportation, storage, shop space, or more overhead cost by constant harassment by other hawkers and city council of Nairobi.
Its not so easy.....Even KRA will come in.
MY THOUGHTS.
young, But who do you think sells to the mitumba sellers? Do you think his returns are a paltry 9% as well ? Seems you guys have very little contact with real businesses on the front lines and the types of returns they are making. I wanted to respond to our broda above but realised it will be an exercise in futility because his mind is fixed on single digit returns over maaaany years as a slow and sure key to building capital and he is too wise to be convinced oderwise. I do not blame him though because 20 years ago I used to think like him. Angalia huyu mama and think carefully. 5 acres of onions Input "not very high" in her own words Total cost of production not exceeding 100k per season Mints 700k to 1m per acre from that investment over a mere 4.5 months How much return is that? Isitoshe we have not accounted for the cap gains on the value of land assuming she owns it. hanging on to crumbling LKL (assuming it does not implode due to fraud) on the casino might take 30 years to give the types of returns this mama makes in one season If some of you guys cannot see it then I better keep quiet because nottin I say can't help you-oo #ExpandYourFinancialMinds
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2007 Posts: 2,074 Location: Lagos, Nigeria
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MugundaMan wrote:young wrote:
Yes with 14k for 1 bail you can do that but with 28 bails at 376k, the story is different in terms of absolute returns and ability to sell all . Here more fixed cost is involved ....transportation, storage, shop space, or more overhead cost by constant harassment by other hawkers and city council of Nairobi.
Its not so easy.....Even KRA will come in.
MY THOUGHTS.
young, But who do you think sells to the mitumba sellers? Do you think his returns are a paltry 9% as well ? Seems you guys have very little contact with real businesses on the front lines and the types of returns they are making. I wanted to respond to our broda above but realised it will be an exercise in futility because his mind is fixed on single digit returns over maaaany years as a slow and sure key to building capital and he is too wise to be convinced oderwise. I do not blame him though because 20 years ago I used to think like him. Angalia huyu mama and think carefully. 5 acres of onions Input "not very high" in her own words Total cost of production not exceeding 100k per season Mints 700k to 1m per acre from that investment over a mere 4.5 months How much return is that? Isitoshe we have not accounted for the cap gains on the value of land assuming she owns it. hanging on to crumbling LKL (assuming it does not implode due to fraud) on the casino might take 30 years to give the types of returns this mama makes in one season If some of you guys cannot see it then I better keep quiet because nottin I say can't help you-oo #ExpandYourFinancialMinds Thanks anyway @Mugundaman but still I COMPLETELY disagree with you . I feel there is no point arguing on this ANY FURTHER . The onion lady nonetheless has labour cost , transportation , weeding/watering and cost of seedlings, adverse weather to contend, also thieves/security and pesticides costs with which she may be economical or ignorant to factor in. These will far surpass the 100k input to realize 700k and above. My policy is a mix of stocks and real estate so am very comfortable thus far as a good source of passive income for a retiree like me. I love your insightful knowledge and contributions on real estate. Please keep it up. They are inspirational, I do share some with my younger Kenyan friends to learn to THANK ME FIRST AND I WILL THANK YOU LATER FOR THEM IF THEY PULL THROUGH. Thanks and happy new year...... Regards Mzee @young The wazua spirit as members is to educate and inform and learn from others within the limit of what we know in any chosen area irrespective of our differences in tribes, nationalities, etc. .
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/26/2012 Posts: 830
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young wrote:MugundaMan wrote:young wrote:
Yes with 14k for 1 bail you can do that but with 28 bails at 376k, the story is different in terms of absolute returns and ability to sell all . Here more fixed cost is involved ....transportation, storage, shop space, or more overhead cost by constant harassment by other hawkers and city council of Nairobi.
Its not so easy.....Even KRA will come in.
MY THOUGHTS.
young, But who do you think sells to the mitumba sellers? Do you think his returns are a paltry 9% as well ? Seems you guys have very little contact with real businesses on the front lines and the types of returns they are making. I wanted to respond to our broda above but realised it will be an exercise in futility because his mind is fixed on single digit returns over maaaany years as a slow and sure key to building capital and he is too wise to be convinced oderwise. I do not blame him though because 20 years ago I used to think like him. Angalia huyu mama and think carefully. 5 acres of onions Input "not very high" in her own words Total cost of production not exceeding 100k per season Mints 700k to 1m per acre from that investment over a mere 4.5 months How much return is that? Isitoshe we have not accounted for the cap gains on the value of land assuming she owns it. hanging on to crumbling LKL (assuming it does not implode due to fraud) on the casino might take 30 years to give the types of returns this mama makes in one season If some of you guys cannot see it then I better keep quiet because nottin I say can't help you-oo #ExpandYourFinancialMinds Thanks anyway @Mugundaman but still I COMPLETELY disagree with you . I feel there is no point arguing on this ANY FURTHER . The onion lady nonetheless has labour cost , transportation , weeding/watering and cost of seedlings, adverse weather to contend, also thieves/security and pesticides costs with which she may be economical or ignorant to factor in. These will far surpass the 100k input to realize 700k and above. My policy is a mix of stocks and real estate so am very comfortable thus far as a good source of passive income for a retiree like me. I love your insightful knowledge and contributions on real estate. Please keep it up. They are ibspirational, I do share some with my younger Kenyan friends to learn to THANK ME FIRST AND I THANK YOU LATER FOR THEM. Thanks and happy new year...... Regards Mzee @young Arguing with this Mugundaman character is insulting your intelligence. He is fixated on 9% returns for stocks and I don't know where he got that figure from because one can even make 100% in a year. What he doesn't realize is that land isn't the only sound investment out there. Additionally, he has a habit of using gross returns figures while calculating ROI which is extremely misleading. In the example above (farming), he only quoted a gross figure. He didn't deduct any inputs and expenses because he doesn't know what those expenses were. He also ignored market risks. For farm produce, if your onions mature when everyone else's does, you get very low prices. That is a risk. Also, farming has other risks apart from market risks. @Mugundaman, the stock market is a casino to those who don't know how to invest - people like you. If you don't know what you are doing, it is indeed a casino and I understand where you are coming from. Personally, I believe that both land and stocks can be great investments. If you suck at investing in stocks, it doesn't warrant calling it a casino like the way Mugundaman does. Just admit you don't know how to play the market, and focus on real estate. Don't call it a casino because you failed in it A successful man is not he who gets the best, it is he who makes the best from what he gets.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2007 Posts: 2,074 Location: Lagos, Nigeria
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S.Mutaga III wrote:young wrote:MugundaMan wrote:young wrote:
Yes with 14k for 1 bail you can do that but with 28 bails at 376k, the story is different in terms of absolute returns and ability to sell all . Here more fixed cost is involved ....transportation, storage, shop space, or more overhead cost by constant harassment by other hawkers and city council of Nairobi.
Its not so easy.....Even KRA will come in.
MY THOUGHTS.
young, But who do you think sells to the mitumba sellers? Do you think his returns are a paltry 9% as well ? Seems you guys have very little contact with real businesses on the front lines and the types of returns they are making. I wanted to respond to our broda above but realised it will be an exercise in futility because his mind is fixed on single digit returns over maaaany years as a slow and sure key to building capital and he is too wise to be convinced oderwise. I do not blame him though because 20 years ago I used to think like him. Angalia huyu mama and think carefully. 5 acres of onions Input "not very high" in her own words Total cost of production not exceeding 100k per season Mints 700k to 1m per acre from that investment over a mere 4.5 months How much return is that? Isitoshe we have not accounted for the cap gains on the value of land assuming she owns it. hanging on to crumbling LKL (assuming it does not implode due to fraud) on the casino might take 30 years to give the types of returns this mama makes in one season If some of you guys cannot see it then I better keep quiet because nottin I say can't help you-oo #ExpandYourFinancialMinds Thanks anyway @Mugundaman but still I COMPLETELY disagree with you . I feel there is no point arguing on this ANY FURTHER . The onion lady nonetheless has labour cost , transportation , weeding/watering and cost of seedlings, adverse weather to contend, also thieves/security and pesticides costs with which she may be economical or ignorant to factor in. These will far surpass the 100k input to realize 700k and above. My policy is a mix of stocks and real estate so am very comfortable thus far as a good source of passive income for a retiree like me. I love your insightful knowledge and contributions on real estate. Please keep it up. They are ibspirational, I do share some with my younger Kenyan friends to learn to THANK ME FIRST AND I THANK YOU LATER FOR THEM. Thanks and happy new year...... Regards Mzee @young Arguing with this Mugundaman character is insulting your intelligence. He is fixated on 9% returns for stocks and I don't know where he got that figure from because one can even make 100% in a year. What he doesn't realize is that land isn't the only sound investment out there. Additionally, he has a habit of using gross returns figures while calculating ROI which is extremely misleading. In the example above (farming), he only quoted a gross figure. He didn't deduct any inputs and expenses because he doesn't know what those expenses were. He also ignored market risks. For farm produce, if your onions mature when everyone else's does, you get very low prices. That is a risk. Also, farming has other risks apart from market risks. @Mugundaman, the stock market is a casino to those who don't know how to invest - people like you. If you don't know what you are doing, it is indeed a casino and I understand where you are coming from. Personally, I believe that both land and stocks can be great investments. If you suck at investing in stocks, it doesn't warrant calling it a casino like the way Mugundaman does. Just admit you don't know how to play the market, and focus on real estate. Don't call it a casino because you failed in it http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...spx?g=posts&t=37102
The wazua spirit as members is to educate and inform and learn from others within the limit of what we know in any chosen area irrespective of our differences in tribes, nationalities, etc. .
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2010 Posts: 625
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S.Mutaga III wrote:Just because you tried investing and failed doesn't mean that it is a fool's errand. This post is written from your personal perspective and shouldn't be generalized. You are probably a bad investor but an outstanding manager/entrepreneur which explains why you failed in stocks but succeeded in business. Not everyone is like you and that is why there are many ways of investing so that everyone can find whatever works best for him or her. A successful NSE investor might make a post claiming that entrepreneurship is a fool's errand, or property investing is a fool's errand. You see, it boils down to what you know best and where you find your success. Some people claim buying a matatu is a fool's errand, but others have made a kill from the same business. I can't code, does it make computer programming a bad career/fool's errand??
Bottomline: Just because you did not succeed in something doesn't warrant you calling it a fool's errand. Others have made it in the same. I didn't fail at NSE stock picking; I just found a way that works much better at achieving my financial goals. Your current post above could have been written by a gambler on SportPesa to defend gambling. My thesis is that investing in the NSE is like planting your seed on less fertile soil because as it is, the NSE is fundamentally flawed. There are other more fertile soils out there for the person who is keen to outperform in the long term. I hope that the kind of person who is keen to outperform will check out these other options!
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