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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Apricot, historical evidence doesn't have to fossilized in a directly accessible form. In the first place evidence doesn't announce itself as such, but rather it's the work of an investigator to find the evidentiary material he/she possesses.
For example, I've been collecting evidence that mythical information is a response to conditions and realities subsisting at a given period. Why, for example, and even when was the book of Gensis written?
How does God change through the Bible? One doesn't need to find God to answer these questions. The text by itself is evidence even without the corroboration of a myth or a legend.
About reading the Bible. I see better teaching on how to read Shakespeare than how to read books of the Bible, esotericism aside.
Critical thought, and an earnest desire to understand a text or version, even testing for null hypotheses is one way we can read the Bible. Of course many who may not use such methods would wish to affirm their wishes through the Bible.
Of course the esoteric nature of Scripture is there. But a printing press can't reduce the hidden to the directly manifest. The press is more about translation, priduction and distribution. An interpretation may be given but that's far from being definitive.
If anything, imagine how difficult it is to appreciate the King James version, if you don't understand the peculiar conditions and interests behind it. If you don't question the Scriptures one can't genuinely understand them.
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/26/2011 Posts: 181 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:@Apricot, historical evidence doesn't have to fossilized in a directly accessible form. In the first place evidence doesn't announce itself as such, but rather it's the work of an investigator to find the evidentiary material he/she possesses.
For example, I've been collecting evidence that mythical information is a response to conditions and realities subsisting at a given period. Why, for example, and even when was the book of Gensis written?
How does God change through the Bible? One doesn't need to find God to answer these questions. The text by itself is evidence even without the corroboration of a myth or a legend.
About reading the Bible. I see better teaching on how to read Shakespeare than how to read books of the Bible, esotericism aside.
Critical thought, and an earnest desire to understand a text or version, even testing for null hypotheses is one way we can read the Bible. Of course many who may not use such methods would wish to affirm their wishes through the Bible.
Of course the esoteric nature of Scripture is there. But a printing press can't reduce the hidden to the directly manifest. The press is more about translation, priduction and distribution. An interpretation may be given but that's far from being definitive.
If anything, imagine how difficult it is to appreciate the King James version, if you don't understand the peculiar conditions and interests behind it. If you don't question the Scriptures one can't genuinely understand them.
I agree. Historical evidence does not have to be all fossil. But it has to be credible. Josephus Flavius was a Jewish historian during the time some of the gospels were being written (60s – 90’s CE). He barely made mention of Jesus. Even the little mention that he supposedly made was determined to be a deceitful entry by Eusebius in the 4th century. You mention “how does God changes through the bible?” And that the text by itself is evidence…let me lead with how the prophet/teacher became God (I am agreeing with your assertions here). Let’s look at Mark. Would you agree that Jesus became Son of God at baptism by John the Baptist (exalted)? The virgin birth is not a factor in Mark. In Luke, it is clear that Jesus becomes divine at birth (exalted). Luke 1:35: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee (KJV). Mark was written around 60-70 AD, John around 90-95 AD. With John it becomes clear that Jesus was pre-existent, subordinate to God (created/incarnate); John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (KJV). In the council of Nicaea in 325 AD, Jesus and God are declared equal (begotten not made, consubstantial). Printing press allowed increased production, wider distribution to a wider audience. With more participants, there became a higher likelihood of more people reading; as it is there will always be those that are discerning and those that suspend disbelief. But with access the question of limits does not arise. KJV is actually a good work of literature. I believe Shakespeare was involved. But again there are more than ten other versions. And later versions (like NIV) have tried to isolate passages that did not exist in early manuscripts (I like to quote Mark 16: 9 – 20, rattle snakes, drinking poison and speaking in tongues, etc.). So if you don’t appreciate the language of “thou art” and “verily I say to you”, you have options that are not too difficult to interpret. First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,548
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Apricot wrote:tycho wrote:@Apricot, historical evidence
I agree. Historical evidence does not have to be all fossil. But it has to be credible. The correct word to simply express what you guy's are saying in such long paragraphs and arguments is simple the word: "HISTORICITY", i know tycho is bound to "make pretend" in his characteristic style of evading his argumentative weaknesses, but keep it simple and use "historicity". The historicity of Jesus the christian figurehead and his crucifixion is in all Academic areas in this day and age an accepted fact. The archaeological support is too overwhelming, not just some dubious ancient hardly known historian. NEUTRAL Article from ABC news on the current archaeological stand point which is more or less fixed, due to varied and REASONABLE sources of input. Personally i consider anyone who considers the historicity of Jesus as "fake news", some sort of "logic denial freak" nut job who thinks falsifying and denying historical figures existed amounts from his "unique" perception into what causes in his dimwitted view 'unrealistic people' to believe in "unreal people" not realizing he is the sick one who has 'poor judgement of history' and REALITY among other poor judgement problems. A New Kenya
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Much Know, I don't subscibe to the word 'historicity' mainly because it excludes the mythical.
The mythical is historical because history is determined by usage not existence, or facticity.
I know it may be difficult for you to think clearly about this because you've already started with emotional outbursts. But just calm down and don't cover up your arguments as you claim I'm doing to mine!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Apricot, understanding credibility of evidence is something very open. For example, I'd hypothize Josephus's omission was due to the unintelligibility of Christ's mythos with respect to Judaistic belief.
History includes repression and suppression of intentions and motives. What's not written can still speak volumes.
There's a point I'd like to explore about a version like the KJV; and that's the unspoken or implicit limitations of the translation and interpretation. So, imagine what it means to please the King with your interpretation and allusions.
For example, how did the interpretations and translations help the King thwart the Pope? I can imagine there wasn't plenty of indifference in the above tasks!
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/26/2011 Posts: 181 Location: Nairobi
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Not clear either as to the reason for Much know’s emotional outburst, I have not questioned the historical existence of a Yeshua and his execution or crucifixion if you like. What I have tried to show is how after his execution, a not so reputable occurrence for Jews of his time, his followers elevated him to God. And I have mostly used quotes from the canon to show this. The article he cites does not add much to what is already known. First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,548
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My concern my dear good thinkers is serious, as i was addressing something commonly said. Because "yesterday" does not exist, or the last month is completely gone with no physical evidence left means the apparent discrepancy in existence where time only moves FORWARD, leaves no place for "historical evidence" as when the clock moves, the past is gone and you can only have present evidence, the past is all to naturally murky. All life is continuum 'present'. Even politicians tomorrow will still deny video recorded history. Can you show me yesterdays physical evidence? No! that's precisely what history is. History is just history and not an object, all dimensions of history are contentious, people will always argue about the past, historians go for "credibility" and not "evidence". There is NOTHING like historical evidence. As spiritual material, or scripture, the Bible needs 'good historicity', to be a credible story to whatever degree, but the analysis of it's true value even as regards the content is a spiritual matter and needs a different type of knowledge or technology that can only reside within the human individual and physics, logic e.t.c can't make or explain. Communicating "faith" or "belief" is impossible, for even so, one can declare to have faith but have non, or mislead. think of the pastor who eyes the next "victim" to seduce, as he preaches on the pulpit. The Bible is "understood". by the spirit. ITS simply not mathematics, or physics. Thomas, Jesus good friend doubted it, and it's recorded in it, so did Peter, why should we argue 2000 years later. SOMA NA FIKIRIA PEKEE YAKO, stop looking for a group of "atheist", Christians Muslims e.t.c, they are constantly fighting among themselves on the same issue. The TRUTH is yours alone, you cannot dilute goof faith with clever 'arguments", but you can start a faith war among fools. Hakuna mambo na "evidence", yet the TRUE SPIRIT is in the book. How would John of Patmos describe the fighter jets which will soon swarm above Babylon he has never seen before? Stinging locust e.t.c, he couldn't write F22 fighters hata kaa ni bible. Christ similarly may have had no words for his "miracles". What exactly is a miracle? Who are you then to question Jesus Godly status when you have never or don't know what kind of system God is and have a very LIMITED vocabulary and insight? Even Moses couldn't say, who are you to tell us? And so on and so fourth. Faith cannot be simplified, or 'proof' provided thereof, it is what it is. There are fellows out there who will ask you to provide PROOF of God, for them to believe or have faith, those that Christ said believe in bread only, what can you do about these who need bread first? Your faith will always be subject to a long list of arguments but it is yours only. A New Kenya
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts and figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point. We all have experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in their belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks. But man’s resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to his belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. To try and tell this I have 2 stories - just 2... Quote:A lady called Dorothy Martin predicted the end of the world as we know it in 1954! she claimed that some 'automatic' writings warned her that a great flood would strike the Chicago area just before dawn on December 21, 1954. The flood would then form an inland sea stretching from the Arctic Ocean to the Gulf of Mexico and a subsequent cataclysm would destroy much of the West Coast from Seattle, Washington down to South America. A flying saucer would come to rescue those who were true believers. She got involved in a local flying saucer cult known as "The Seekers". They strove to make this known and got more and more people. The followers moved to Dorothy Martin's house. Their efforts to warn the public of the coming disaster were published in a local newspaper story under the headline: PROPHECY FROM PLANET. CLARION CALL TO CITY: FLEE THAT FLOOD. IT'LL SWAMP US ON DEC. 21, OUTER SPACE TELLS SUBURBANITE. A researcher called Festinger and his team took interest in the group and Martin. Given that she was making a prediction about a specific future event which had already become the focus of media attention, the researchers decided to carry out a field study examining apocalyptic belief. They also viewed it as an ideal test of Festinger's fledgling theory of cognitive dissonance. They managed to infiltrate the group and watch the responses/reactions when the prediction failed.
Then came December 20 when the final group of fifteen to twenty Seekers met in the Martin home to await their salvation. Based on Dorothy Martin's messages, the aliens would come at midnight to take them to their new home. To prevent being burned by contact with the alien spacecraft, the Seekers were instructed to remove all metal from their bodies (including zippers and bra straps). You can imagine the suspense as midnight approached and passed and the group became increasingly disappointed. Finally, at 4:45 am, Dorothy Martin received another message stating that the cataclysm had been called off by the "God of Earth." Apparently their group had impressed God with their faith and the human race was spared as a result. As Festinger predicted - the hardcore members became defiant! Their faith seemed to strengthen! they were jubilant!
Now came the hard part of telling the world. Dorothy Martin and her supporters were dismayed at the negative reaction that they received from the newspapers and wire services that they contacted. Martin took news of earthquakes in Italy and California as confirmation of her predictions of disaster but there was little else in the weeks that followed. Persistence of belief even when evidence to the contrary shows up exists when the following five necessary conditions are met: 1. There must be conviction. 2. There must be commitment to this conviction. i.e, believers have to have taken an important action that is hard to undo (such as quitting a job or selling a house). 3. The conviction must be amenable to unequivocal disconfirmation, i.e, there must be a way of testing the conviction 4. Such unequivocal disconfirmation must occur. 5. Social support must be available subsequent to the disconfirmation (Groups of believers can support one another better than isolated believers). The most interesting aspect I have noticed is " There must be commitment to this conviction"... Time for the second story... Quote:"Elliot Aronson and Judson Mills invited Stanford college students to join a group that would be discussing the psychology of sex. However, before the students could join the sex-discussion group, they had to undergo an entrance test. He divided the students into two groups: one group had to undergo a "severely embarrassing" initiation procedure where they read aloud lurid, sexually explicit passages from racy novels (and for the 1950's, this was extremely embarrassing), while another group only had to undergo a "mildly embarrassing" initiation by reading aloud sexual words from a dictionary.
After the initiation, students then listened to an identical audio recording of a sham "group discussion," purportedly of the group they had just been initiated into. The recording was made so that it was as boring and uninformative as possible. The group wasn't even talking about sex - only the secondary sex characteristics of birds. Students in the recorded "group discussion" stammered, hemmed and hawed, made rambling comments that were off topic, or said they hadn't done the required reading on bird courtship practices.
Finally, the students rated how much they liked the discussion and the members of the group they had just joined. The students who had only undergone "mild initiations" saw the discussion for what is was: boring and worthless. They correctly thought the student who came unprepared was irresponsible and let the group down. However, the group who underwent "severe initiations" thought the group was interesting, exciting, and rated the group members as attractive and sharp. They even forgave the unprepared student who hadn't done his assigned reading. They thought his honesty was refreshing!" Initiation/Investment/Commitment into a certain frame of thinking makes us stubborn! why? we judge ourselves to be really smart people! We 'smart' people will have made tremendous sacrifices of our time, energy, and money to this worldview. We have done this to build and support the church/community that we belong to, to earn favor with God both now and in the afterlife, to convert other people, to pass on the tradition and beliefs to our children, and to advance our social status in the group. It's quite an investment! do we just... AGREE to rubbish it all? Like the 'Seekers' in the story before this - do we walk out of the house feeling silly? all naked? subjects of bad judgement? After all these years? Of course not! We dig in! it's the human condition. This is global! the fervence you have is the same fervence @alph has and some Buddhist in Myanmar. When they examine their books and tomes - they draw meaning from it. it's the human condition - we see things AS WE ARE as opposed to AS THEY ARE! When evidence shows up to the contrary - we explain it away! we reframe! we adjust our goggles- it's all cognitive dissonance!!! We are human... and that's lovely! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Much Know, you've now lost me on your use of 'historicity', because I understand it to take a very specific and perhaps narrow view of 'history', while you're negating the concepts they stand for. Please help me understand how this is possible.
Again, what do you mean the past doesn't exist, when there are things like monuments? Look at it this way; the past exists through his residues.
The residue has a relation or relations in the mind. The mind rarely changes completely. It's a gradual transformation. So the past is always there in our day to day lives.
Besides, if we're in a quantum universe then reversibility is possible, and the past can re-exist. Or rather the past exists.
That's why I say even spirtuality is political. It's about communucated understandings and decisions, and it's never a personal or purely subjective matter.
Maybe there's something like religious nihilism. And that's how I can understand the question at the begining.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@masukuma. Your observations on how our minds respond to circumstances is interesting and I even suspect to be true.
And I understand the observation to be a result of very particular circumstances and that with time, humanity must change how its mind works. It's only a matter of time for us to realize how homo sapiens thinking may be flawed. Especially due to political and economic conditions.
Maybe the idea is to learn how to change our thinking now to a higher species level.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,909
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such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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the trap is consistency!! the human urge to be consistent! not to be seen as being foolish at one point in their lives... I wrote this sometime back All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,548
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Angelica _ann wrote:such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. Overthinking is very sweet, it is sweeter than sex by far, try it!  A New Kenya
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Angelica _ann wrote:such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. @angelica, but you cannot afford to be careless. We should at least use our intellect, with more wisdom, we get more enlightened and choices change... We have examples like Ibrahim. Even as his father insisted on rejecting his invitation, he continued his attempts to persuade his father and other people to worship God Almighty, instead of worshipping the helpless idols (people of his time were worshipping idols). We read his story in Quran 9:41-50: 41 And mention (O Muhammad) in the Book (the story of) Ibrahim (Abraham). Indeed, he was a man of truth and a Prophet.
42 (Mention him) when he said to his father, "O my father, why do you worship that which does not hear, and does not see, and does not benefit or harm you anything?
46 (His father Azar) said, "Have you deserted (rejected) my gods, O Ibrahim? If you do not desist, I will surely stone you, so immigrate (depart) away from me for a long time." Eventually, Abraham was bannished from his homeland. That is why he settled in a strange land: “ I am a stranger and a sojourner among you; give me a burial site among you that I may bury my dead out of my sight.” Genesis 23:3-4
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/22/2011 Posts: 561 Location: House
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Angelica _ann wrote:such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. Hi @AA The thread was spoilt by @Alpha and the Aliens. All we (me and my like minded dilemma brothers and Sisters) wanted was a kind of discussion that would unclog the mind and make human race enjoy life more.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Ngogoyo wrote:Angelica _ann wrote:such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. Hi @AA The thread was spoilt by @Alpha and the Aliens. All we (me and my like minded dilemma brothers and Sisters) wanted was a kind of discussion that would unclog the mind and make human race enjoy life more. That would be careless to live an anyhow lifestyle. It is us making things hard in our minds. We have to be balanced in life, enjoy what is good and at the same time think about where we will go when we die. We have to make preparations... That is why you started the thread... Take for example a class. On one hand, hardworking students struggle to study in school and do all other duties required of in order to enjoy a happy life later. But lazy students waste most of their time in enjoyment during school time. Then they struggle and suffer later in life... You will enjoy your life more when you live it according to the manufacturer, the maker, the designer, the creator.
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/26/2011 Posts: 181 Location: Nairobi
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Ngogoyo wrote:Angelica _ann wrote:such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. Hi @AA The thread was spoilt by @Alpha and the Aliens. All we (me and my like minded dilemma brothers and Sisters) wanted was a kind of discussion that would unclog the mind and make human race enjoy life more. Ha! We aliens just hover around in space looking opportunity to disrupt your joyous light discussion...let me veer in another direction and look for other beings in need of disruption... But on a serious note, expect nothing short of what you see here when you bring up the subject of religion/spirituality. Its controversies never end. If you want the discourse to lean in particular direction, you have to be ready to moderate it and steer it in the direction you want. Unfortunately that is not very easy to do here. First time in history we can save the human race by laying in front of the TV and doing nothing. Let's not screw it up
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:
You will enjoy your life more when you live it according to the manufacturer, the maker, the designer, the creator.
Xenu? Zeus? Amun Ra? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Angelica _ann wrote:such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. I came from the rock and the wind and will return to them; so my life is doomed never to be simple. Why I've never learned to leave you simple people with simple lives alone is the problem. Maybe it's because of loneliness...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Ngogoyo wrote:Angelica _ann wrote:such a simple thread spoiled by over-thinking. Life is simple, live it to the fullest since from dust we came and to dust we shall return - Amina. Hi @AA The thread was spoilt by @Alpha and the Aliens. All we (me and my like minded dilemma brothers and Sisters) wanted was a kind of discussion that would unclog the mind and make human race enjoy life more. Okay. Carry on with your mission, brothers and sisters.
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