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2 Stocks for life
enyands
#141 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 5:22:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,300
Location: kenya
MaichBlack wrote:
enyands wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Othelo wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
Add on top of that WTO in Nairobi have hit a deadlock on a number of issues favouring developing countries like us.
China gave us the sh.10.5bn loan so that we don't raise any issue about unfair practices to nations like us.


What do you expect when wolves are negotiating with lambs.

Africans have to take by force what belongs to Africans. Stop extending begging bowls to our first/second world cousins

I have always wondered why Africa cannot organise themselves and create some serious trading block and development fund!!!


Exactly!

Trade between Africa and the west is heavily tilted in favour of the west. The west buys raw materials (never finished goods) then sells back finished goods.

African products are faced with Tariff and Non tariff barriers in the west.

Intra African trade on mutually beneficial terms can fast track development. e.g. South Sudan to sell oil to Kenya, Kenyan banks to provide development capital in SS.



This is practical written wise ,but on the ground just to let you know the west Will never allow this to happen.kwani where do you think they will sell their finished product if you depend on each other.should someone try that sinister move they will slap you with bans and trade embargos. Ask Gaddafi.he tried to make sure that Africa depends on herself ...they got rid of him very fast. We need people like Tom Sankara and the pan African leaders .

Finally!!! Someone who understands why the west got rid of Gaddafi!!!

The dream and model Gaddafi had for Africa would have totally upset the status quo. Look at the way foreign companies including oil companies were made to operate in Libya! No Parasitic agreements allowed. First question, how does this deal benefit Libya.

People should read about the Gaddafi Libya! Ridiculously low taxes, free education to University level, Government pays for you University fees abroad of you want to do something not offered in Libya, working welfare system, Cheques (Yes, you actually get a cheque!!!) from oil proceeds etc. Libyans will never get that life back! Not the next two generations at least!!!



The west potrayed him as evil witch yet few people understood what big heart he had for Africa. He was a threat to west especially France with the Africa satellite project.halafu wakaua yeye. Whoever praises the western machinery are brainwashed
Ericsson
#142 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 6:26:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
@MaichBlack
Similar to what happened to us here in Kenya when they came with the SAPs (Structural Adjustment Plans).
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
whiteowl
#143 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 8:46:08 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/16/2014
Posts: 1,420
Location: Bohemian Grove
enyands wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
enyands wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Othelo wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
Add on top of that WTO in Nairobi have hit a deadlock on a number of issues favouring developing countries like us.
China gave us the sh.10.5bn loan so that we don't raise any issue about unfair practices to nations like us.


What do you expect when wolves are negotiating with lambs.

Africans have to take by force what belongs to Africans. Stop extending begging bowls to our first/second world cousins

I have always wondered why Africa cannot organise themselves and create some serious trading block and development fund!!!


Exactly!

Trade between Africa and the west is heavily tilted in favour of the west. The west buys raw materials (never finished goods) then sells back finished goods.

African products are faced with Tariff and Non tariff barriers in the west.

Intra African trade on mutually beneficial terms can fast track development. e.g. South Sudan to sell oil to Kenya, Kenyan banks to provide development capital in SS.



This is practical written wise ,but on the ground just to let you know the west Will never allow this to happen.kwani where do you think they will sell their finished product if you depend on each other.should someone try that sinister move they will slap you with bans and trade embargos. Ask Gaddafi.he tried to make sure that Africa depends on herself ...they got rid of him very fast. We need people like Tom Sankara and the pan African leaders .

Finally!!! Someone who understands why the west got rid of Gaddafi!!!

The dream and model Gaddafi had for Africa would have totally upset the status quo. Look at the way foreign companies including oil companies were made to operate in Libya! No Parasitic agreements allowed. First question, how does this deal benefit Libya.

People should read about the Gaddafi Libya! Ridiculously low taxes, free education to University level, Government pays for you University fees abroad of you want to do something not offered in Libya, working welfare system, Cheques (Yes, you actually get a cheque!!!) from oil proceeds etc. Libyans will never get that life back! Not the next two generations at least!!!



The west potrayed him as evil witch yet few people understood what big heart he had for Africa. He was a threat to west especially France with the Africa satellite project.halafu wakaua yeye. Whoever praises the western machinery are brainwashed


The quality of life was at par with Scandinavian countries. Even UN reports said as much.But when NATO gangs up against you, your odds of survival are minimal. Only Russia and China can fight them.
watesh
#144 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 9:05:09 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/10/2014
Posts: 969
Location: Kenya
whiteowl wrote:
enyands wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
enyands wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Othelo wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
Add on top of that WTO in Nairobi have hit a deadlock on a number of issues favouring developing countries like us.
China gave us the sh.10.5bn loan so that we don't raise any issue about unfair practices to nations like us.


What do you expect when wolves are negotiating with lambs.

Africans have to take by force what belongs to Africans. Stop extending begging bowls to our first/second world cousins

I have always wondered why Africa cannot organise themselves and create some serious trading block and development fund!!!


Exactly!

Trade between Africa and the west is heavily tilted in favour of the west. The west buys raw materials (never finished goods) then sells back finished goods.

African products are faced with Tariff and Non tariff barriers in the west.

Intra African trade on mutually beneficial terms can fast track development. e.g. South Sudan to sell oil to Kenya, Kenyan banks to provide development capital in SS.



This is practical written wise ,but on the ground just to let you know the west Will never allow this to happen.kwani where do you think they will sell their finished product if you depend on each other.should someone try that sinister move they will slap you with bans and trade embargos. Ask Gaddafi.he tried to make sure that Africa depends on herself ...they got rid of him very fast. We need people like Tom Sankara and the pan African leaders .

Finally!!! Someone who understands why the west got rid of Gaddafi!!!

The dream and model Gaddafi had for Africa would have totally upset the status quo. Look at the way foreign companies including oil companies were made to operate in Libya! No Parasitic agreements allowed. First question, how does this deal benefit Libya.

People should read about the Gaddafi Libya! Ridiculously low taxes, free education to University level, Government pays for you University fees abroad of you want to do something not offered in Libya, working welfare system, Cheques (Yes, you actually get a cheque!!!) from oil proceeds etc. Libyans will never get that life back! Not the next two generations at least!!!



The west potrayed him as evil witch yet few people understood what big heart he had for Africa. He was a threat to west especially France with the Africa satellite project.halafu wakaua yeye. Whoever praises the western machinery are brainwashed


The quality of life was at par with Scandinavian countries. Even UN reports said as much.But when NATO gangs up against you, your odds of survival are minimal. Only Russia and China can fight them.

The developed nations have so much spending power in their countries with most of the wealth in the world there. They literally have us by the balls. Eg travel advisories cripple the tourism sector in the snap of a finger, kenya shillings value collapses. Biggest exchange earner is remittances, well deny us visas and we fall down further
Ericsson
#145 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 10:47:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
Add on top of that we are stealing from the public coffers more than what our economy can accomodate
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
enyands
#146 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:14:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,300
Location: kenya
watesh wrote:
whiteowl wrote:
enyands wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
enyands wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Othelo wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
Add on top of that WTO in Nairobi have hit a deadlock on a number of issues favouring developing countries like us.
China gave us the sh.10.5bn loan so that we don't raise any issue about unfair practices to nations like us.


What do you expect when wolves are negotiating with lambs.

Africans have to take by force what belongs to Africans. Stop extending begging bowls to our first/second world cousins

I have always wondered why Africa cannot organise themselves and create some serious trading block and development fund!!!


Exactly!

Trade between Africa and the west is heavily tilted in favour of the west. The west buys raw materials (never finished goods) then sells back finished goods.

African products are faced with Tariff and Non tariff barriers in the west.

Intra African trade on mutually beneficial terms can fast track development. e.g. South Sudan to sell oil to Kenya, Kenyan banks to provide development capital in SS.



This is practical written wise ,but on the ground just to let you know the west Will never allow this to happen.kwani where do you think they will sell their finished product if you depend on each other.should someone try that sinister move they will slap you with bans and trade embargos. Ask Gaddafi.he tried to make sure that Africa depends on herself ...they got rid of him very fast. We need people like Tom Sankara and the pan African leaders .

Finally!!! Someone who understands why the west got rid of Gaddafi!!!

The dream and model Gaddafi had for Africa would have totally upset the status quo. Look at the way foreign companies including oil companies were made to operate in Libya! No Parasitic agreements allowed. First question, how does this deal benefit Libya.

People should read about the Gaddafi Libya! Ridiculously low taxes, free education to University level, Government pays for you University fees abroad of you want to do something not offered in Libya, working welfare system, Cheques (Yes, you actually get a cheque!!!) from oil proceeds etc. Libyans will never get that life back! Not the next two generations at least!!!



The west potrayed him as evil witch yet few people understood what big heart he had for Africa. He was a threat to west especially France with the Africa satellite project.halafu wakaua yeye. Whoever praises the western machinery are brainwashed


The quality of life was at par with Scandinavian countries. Even UN reports said as much.But when NATO gangs up against you, your odds of survival are minimal. Only Russia and China can fight them.

The developed nations have so much spending power in their countries with most of the wealth in the world there. They literally have us by the balls. Eg travel advisories cripple the tourism sector in the snap of a finger, kenya shillings value collapses. Biggest exchange earner is remittances, well deny us visas and we fall down further



Obama came and signed some anti money laundering with UK whereby anyone from majuu who wires money more than $10,000 the cbk should report to IRS.then IRS will audit your past filings to see if your money is legit .I think most of diaspora work hard and send much money home. Those guys want their money to stay in their countries.they have been keeping note of record shattering wire remittance Kenyans do. "THIS ATTRACTED THEIR ATTENTION" hence treaty Obama signed.
I repeat once the western realise that there is something that threatens their survival then they will do anything to protect their interest.
VituVingiSana
#147 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:25:36 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,103
Location: Nairobi
Ericsson wrote:
@MaichBlack
Similar to what happened to us here in Kenya when they came with the SAPs (Structural Adjustment Plans).

Ahem, why was their the need for SAPs? Coz Moi & cronies had f****d us in the a**e with corruption & tribalism. Stop sugarcoating it.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#148 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:28:45 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,103
Location: Nairobi
watesh wrote:
whiteowl wrote:
enyands wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
enyands wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Othelo wrote:
sparkly wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
Add on top of that WTO in Nairobi have hit a deadlock on a number of issues favouring developing countries like us.
China gave us the sh.10.5bn loan so that we don't raise any issue about unfair practices to nations like us.


What do you expect when wolves are negotiating with lambs.

Africans have to take by force what belongs to Africans. Stop extending begging bowls to our first/second world cousins

I have always wondered why Africa cannot organise themselves and create some serious trading block and development fund!!!


Exactly!

Trade between Africa and the west is heavily tilted in favour of the west. The west buys raw materials (never finished goods) then sells back finished goods.

African products are faced with Tariff and Non tariff barriers in the west.

Intra African trade on mutually beneficial terms can fast track development. e.g. South Sudan to sell oil to Kenya, Kenyan banks to provide development capital in SS.



This is practical written wise ,but on the ground just to let you know the west Will never allow this to happen.kwani where do you think they will sell their finished product if you depend on each other.should someone try that sinister move they will slap you with bans and trade embargos. Ask Gaddafi.he tried to make sure that Africa depends on herself ...they got rid of him very fast. We need people like Tom Sankara and the pan African leaders .

Finally!!! Someone who understands why the west got rid of Gaddafi!!!

The dream and model Gaddafi had for Africa would have totally upset the status quo. Look at the way foreign companies including oil companies were made to operate in Libya! No Parasitic agreements allowed. First question, how does this deal benefit Libya.

People should read about the Gaddafi Libya! Ridiculously low taxes, free education to University level, Government pays for you University fees abroad of you want to do something not offered in Libya, working welfare system, Cheques (Yes, you actually get a cheque!!!) from oil proceeds etc. Libyans will never get that life back! Not the next two generations at least!!!



The west potrayed him as evil witch yet few people understood what big heart he had for Africa. He was a threat to west especially France with the Africa satellite project.halafu wakaua yeye. Whoever praises the western machinery are brainwashed


The quality of life was at par with Scandinavian countries. Even UN reports said as much.But when NATO gangs up against you, your odds of survival are minimal. Only Russia and China can fight them.

The developed nations have so much spending power in their countries with most of the wealth in the world there. They literally have us by the balls. Eg travel advisories cripple the tourism sector in the snap of a finger, kenya shillings value collapses. Biggest exchange earner is remittances, well deny us visas and we fall down further

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Nonsense. Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Stop conning folks. In any case, we do the same. We complain when expats send money to their 'homes' just as @Ericsson complained about 'foreign ownership' but when I asked about Kenyans owning firms in Rwanda, TZ and UG... there was no response.

To summarize: "We don't want foreign investment that requires a return" but "We want a return when we invest in other countries"
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Ericsson
#149 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:30:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
To add on my comment like i had posted on post number 145;

"Add on top of that we are stealing from the public coffers more than what our economy can accomodate"

Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Ericsson
#150 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:39:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
@VituVingiSana
Punguza emotions
@Watesh was making a point that we need the West more than they need us.
Any change of law they do hurts us most than when we do the same.
I gave u response on the issue of foreign ownership since u hadn't understood my point.
Take time and understand what one says before commenting with statements like nonsense
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
VituVingiSana
#151 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 12:34:55 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,103
Location: Nairobi
Ericsson wrote:
@VituVingiSana
Punguza emotions
@Watesh was making a point that we need the West more than they need us.
Any change of law they do hurts us most than when we do the same.
I gave u response on the issue of foreign ownership since u hadn't understood my point.
Take time and understand what one says before commenting with statements like nonsense


@Ericsson - Please enlighten me again on the response as far as foreign ownership is concerned.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Ericsson
#152 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 1:10:29 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
@VituVingiSana
I explained to you foreign ownership and foreign investment are two different things.
From the examples you gave of KK,Equity in Uganda and Rwanda,KCB in South Sudan that is foreign investment.
What as a country we should allow is investors the opportunity to setup their companies here and do business competing with local companies as well.
What problems does Kenya Re have does require foreign ownership capital inadequacy,loss making institution,huge debt.
That is where i disputed your point that gava should sell 51% stake to a foreign investor looking for gateway to Africa.
When local companies are sold to foreign investors there is normally an underlying reason.
Give me one local company that was sold and I will give u the underlying reason.
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
VituVingiSana
#153 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 1:21:29 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,103
Location: Nairobi
Ericsson wrote:
@VituVingiSana
I explained to you foreign ownership and foreign investment are two different things. What's the difference between "foreign ownership" and "foreign investment"?

From the examples you gave of KK,Equity in Uganda and Rwanda,KCB in South Sudan that is foreign investment.
Hopefully, after you explain what 'foreign investment' is I might understand what you mean by the above.
What as a country we should allow is investors the opportunity to setup their companies here and do business competing with local companies as well.
What problems does Kenya Re have does require foreign ownership capital inadequacy,loss making institution,huge debt.
Does a firm have to have a problem for a foreign investor to invest in it?
That is where i disputed your point that gava should sell 51% stake to a foreign investor looking for gateway to Africa.
Does KenyaRe have the capital & expertise to aggressively expand into South, Central, North & West Africa and compete with South African, Moroccan & Nigerian firms?
When local companies are sold to foreign investors there is normally an underlying reason.
Give me one local company that was sold and I will give u the underlying reason.


One? Let me give you a bunch.

InterConsumer Products
Haco Industries
Cannon Assurance
Equity Bank [almost 50% last year]
KBL/EABL
CMC
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Ericsson
#154 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 7:49:10 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
@VituVingiSana
I explained to you foreign ownership and foreign investment are two different things. What's the difference between "foreign ownership" and "foreign investment"?

From the examples you gave of KK, Equity in Uganda and Rwanda, KCB in South Sudan that is foreign investment.
Hopefully, after you explain what 'foreign investment' is I might understand what you mean by the above.
What as a country we should allow is investors the opportunity to setup their companies here and do business competing with local companies as well.
What problems does Kenya Re have does require foreign ownership capital inadequacy, loss making institution, huge debt.
Does a firm have to have a problem for a foreign investor to invest in it?
There has to be an underlying reason why a company is sold to foreigners; get the difference between foreign ownership and investment. Foreign ownership means foreigners have control of the running affairs of the company; foreign investment is foreigners playing speculation game like me and you; buy share price low and sell high.

Read the caption about ARM, Uchumi and Nakumatt in business daily on searching for a foreign owner as a strategic investor. There has to be an underlying reason.

That is where I disputed your point that gava should sell 51% stake to a foreign investor looking for gateway to Africa.
Does Kenya Re have the capital & expertise to aggressively expand into South, Central, North & West Africa and compete with South African, Moroccan & Nigerian firms?

Kenya Re already has a subsidiary in West Africa operating from Abidjan, Ivory Coast.
For Southern Africa they are setting up a subsidiary to be based in Lusaka, Zambia.
As for capital, Kenya Re have a lot of money so capital isn’t a problem. Check their balance sheet in the 2014 Annual Report and 2015 Half Year Report.
They are normally cautious in their expansion i.e. ROI has to be justified before expanding else the money is invested in Government Securities, Quoted shares in NSE,Corporate bonds or fixed deposit accounts. That is the reason their profitability doesn’t experience wild swings even in a bear market because of their investment portfolio mix and you don't hear them writing down an investment.
Expertise you can hire without ceding control; reason why companies look for foreign ownership is capital.
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Ericsson
#155 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 7:59:19 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
One? Let me give you a bunch.

InterConsumer Products--Competition was hitting them hard and the local owners didn't have the capital to further expand the company so they sold to L'Oreal who have the capital for further expansion.

Haco Industries--Competition from foreign brands.When NARC came into power HACO lost the monopoly they had in supplying biro pens to KRA at higly inflated prices where BIC pens were being sold at ksh.50 instead of 8.
Chris Kirubi looking for financial resources to diversify in the real sector via Centum.That is how he got his money to increase stake in Centum.

Cannon Assurance--Money to ensure the company complies with IRA statutory ratios and competition from other firms which was eating into their bottomline.Owner wanted money to invest in other profitable ventures.

Equity Bank [almost 50% last year]--No foreign ownership but foreign investors playing speculation game.Buying low and selling high.This is foreign investment.

KBL/EABL--Capital for expansion i.e cash rich Diageo could do it locals can't.

CMC--Company was on its way to death bed after losing the JLR dealership to RMA;owners looked for a "fool" to recoup their money before situation gets worse.
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Ericsson
#156 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 8:00:24 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
For CMC they also lost exclusivity of the VW brand to DT Dobie
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
Ericsson
#157 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 8:01:34 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
Nowadays both DT Dobie and CMC deal in VW brands.
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
VituVingiSana
#158 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 10:12:42 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,103
Location: Nairobi
@ Ericsson - I give up. How about this... you are right. I will still advocate and hope a 'foreign investor/owner' OR a 'local investor/owner' will buy my KenRe shares for a substantial premium. It doesn't matter to me who buys coz the color of the payment to me will remain BLACK.

You said "From the examples you gave of KK, Equity in Uganda and Rwanda, KCB in South Sudan that is foreign investment." Then you said "Foreign ownership means foreigners have control of the running affairs of the company; foreign investment is foreigners playing speculation game like me and you; buy share price low and sell high."

That's when I gave up. If you cannot see the inconsistency in your statement, then I cannot help you.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Ericsson
#159 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 12:12:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,684
Location: NAIROBI
@VituVingiSana
At the end of the day we are here to make money.
Companies wil spread out geographically to make money for the owners.

If Kenya Re reaches ksh.50 per share will u cash out?
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
VituVingiSana
#160 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 2:30:41 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,103
Location: Nairobi
Ericsson wrote:
@VituVingiSana
At the end of the day we are here to make money.
Companies wil spread out geographically to make money for the owners.

If Kenya Re reaches ksh.50 per share will u cash out?

Within a reasonable (not after 10 years) time frame & at USD 0.49/share (currently 50/- with KES 102/$)... YES
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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