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Africa to pull out of ICC
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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nostoppingthis wrote:masukuma wrote:maka wrote:masukuma wrote:maka wrote:masukuma wrote:are we really sincere? are our arguments being made for arguments sake - so that we can score some points against those of an opposing team? do we really care? I for one do really care some of my relatives were displaed,my old man waz in the thick of thingz travelling to Nai and its only through Gods grace he safely passed the road blocks on the roads at various places...most people probably werent affected thats why they can loosely engage in some oralorrhea..justice is a far fetched notion it may never come through even from the ICC but atleast something should be done go through a trial if you are found clean well and good if you are found guilty get punished for your misdeeds...for how long will impunity reign?for how long will those who have trample on the have nots? boss, same case here - my famo was affected in both 97 and 2007. we lost property but my relatives lives were spared. the reason I continue to state that this whole debate has taken a tangent and become a pissing competition is because the people who did the things like this  are know by their victims themselves but we have decided that that is not good enough nor an important link to follow (why? perhaps because its not good political fodder). I have also witnessed people sharing links (almost gloating while doing it) to the effect that Kenya has a shortfall in our budget - its like they will be spared when prices of things go us and its like 'we told you so - choices have consequences' will be legal tender... MBOSS WE ARE IN IT TOGETHER. the sooner we stop relying on the east or west for sustenance the better. As I said before most of those guys cannot tell the difference between A kalenjin, a luo, a kikuyu or kamba - you are just nywele ngumu black folk! I hear you...we are hard headed individuals I seriously dont know what will ever change us. We need to come to the realization that 'we are in it together' - no one cares about us, they want our stuff! Ditto!! On another note, is M7 genuine in his recent statements? me thinks he'll be the happiest if our economy is to go down south because of these ICC cases... M7's economy suffered in 2008 when we decided to sort out our political differences like roosters do. M7 does not have a choice (although TZ is working on getting stuff to him bila our usual ndlama and findio) - our stability is to his direct benefit. Tanzanians can be argued as being not direct benefactors of our stability. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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So, let me get this argument. The reason I don't support the ICC is because the "real people" who did this are not in the list. "We know" who did it. You seem to forget that the present gov't is led by the people "who know" who did what. So forgive me for asking but why don't you ask the gov't led by the people who were "unfairly" targeted, to start proceedings on the people "you know" who actually did it? This hiding under the blanket behaviour is really shallow in my opinion. If you are clean please by all means use the newly acquired powers to bring real change and justice to the victims of these killings and maimings. Going around saying that there should be no trial simply because ICC hates you because you are black is not "clean". Shouting here and naming names such as Kibor, is rather not clever considering that your njumbiree gov't is in charge and I'm sure they will help you bring such allegations to court. Chances are higher that it won't. And by the way, you can be sued for making such wild allegations so be careful. Only 3 people are suspects in this case after 5 years. What a great justice system we have here. We should all be proud to be africans who can deal with their own matters. What do those white colonialists who want to take all our minerals think they know. Our record is clean, exemplary and one that the world should copy and replicate. Out of 1500 people killed, we have 3 suspects. Personally I think that the problem is that there is no Raila to blame now for the killings in Mandera, Busia etc. Shamba la wanyama the kenyan version. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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......and next will be non-cooperation with the ICC, the music just began!!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/9/2007 Posts: 13,095
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Uhuru and Ruto should be men enough and let the ICC process go on uninterrupted. It would be more honorable, or at least slightly honorable, if they allow that "personal problem" sorted out before thinking of dragging the whole Africa into a "personal" problem. Even if Africa were to pull out of ICC, it should be after they are through with their cases, or at least independently. If they believe they are innocent, as they have insisted, they need not worry a bit. Truth, after all, will set them free. And by the way, why was ICC set up in the first place? Yes African heads have been targeted, but was there a reason why they are there in the first place? What shall be the alternative to sort those particular reasons? And further, those heads do not literary kill africans, they hire and finance and order people who does so...how shall those who are ordered or paid or hired by whatever means be punished? I have a feeling that if this particular section is punished, the so called leaders shall not have anyone to hire in future.... Uhuru na Ruto mutige wana...prove that u r men by fighting your case in court, and win if u r innocent. Up to this point, I treat u as innocent, because u have not been proved guilty. Please prove me right. donge?!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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washiku wrote:Uhuru and Ruto should be men enough and let the ICC process go on uninterrupted. It would be more honorable, or at least slightly honorable, if they allow that "personal problem" sorted out before thinking of dragging the whole Africa into a "personal" problem. Even if Africa were to pull out of ICC, it should be after they are through with their cases, or at least independently. If they believe they are innocent, as they have insisted, they need not worry a bit. Truth, after all, will set them free.
And by the way, why was ICC set up in the first place? Yes African heads have been targeted, but was there a reason why they are there in the first place? What shall be the alternative to sort those particular reasons? And further, those heads do not literary kill africans, they hire and finance and order people who does so...how shall those who are ordered or paid or hired by whatever means be punished? I have a feeling that if this particular section is punished, the so called leaders shall not have anyone to hire in future....
Uhuru na Ruto mutige wana...prove that u r men by fighting your case in court, and win if u r innocent. Up to this point, I treat u as innocent, because u have not been proved guilty. Please prove me right. donge?!!! ...and while at it, who took Africans to the Hague: List of the suspects who have been taken to ICC and who took them. 1 Bahr Idriss Abu Garda - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 2 Mohammed Hussein Ali - Somalia -Referred by own country 3 Abdallah Banda Abakeir - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 4 Omar al-Bashir - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 5 Jean-Pierre Bemba - DRC -Referred by own country 6 Muammar Gaddafi - Libya -Referred by own country 7 Saif al-Islam Gaddafi - Libya -Referred by own country 8 Laurent Gbagbo - Ivory Coast -Referred by own country 9 Simone Gbagbo - Ivory Coast -Referred by own country 10 Ahmed Mohammed Haroun - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 11 Abdel Rahim Hussein - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 12 Saleh Jerbo - Sudan -Prosecutor's application 13 Germain Katanga (Simba) - DRC -Referred by own country 14 Uhuru Kenyatta - Kenya -Referred by own country 15 Joseph Kony - Uganda -Referred by own country 16 Henry Kosgey - Kenya -Referred by own country 17 Ali Kushayb - Sudan -Referred by own country 18 Thomas Lubanga Dyilo - DRC -Referred by own country 19 Raska Lukwiya - Uganda -Referred by own country 20 Callixte Mbarushimana - Rwanda -Referred by own country 21 Sylvestre Mudacumura - Rwanda -Referred by own country 22 Francis Muthaura - Kenya -Referred by own country 23 Mathieu Ngudjolo Chui - DRC -Referred by own country 24 Bosco Ntaganda - DRC -Referred by own country 25 Okot Odhiambo - Uganda -Referred by own country 26 Dominic Ongwen - Uganda -Referred by own country 27 Vincent Otti - Uganda -Referred by own country 28 William Ruto - Kenya -Referred by own country 29 Joshua Sang - Kenya -Referred by own country 30 Abdullah Al-Senussi - Libya -Referred by own country ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Chief Joined: 8/24/2009 Posts: 5,909 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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alma wrote:So, let me get this argument.
The reason I don't support the ICC is because the "real people" who did this are not in the list. "We know" who did it.
You seem to forget that the present gov't is led by the people "who know" who did what.
So forgive me for asking but why don't you ask the gov't led by the people who were "unfairly" targeted, to start proceedings on the people "you know" who actually did it?
This hiding under the blanket behaviour is really shallow in my opinion.
If you are clean please by all means use the newly acquired powers to bring real change and justice to the victims of these killings and maimings.
Going around saying that there should be no trial simply because ICC hates you because you are black is not "clean".
Shouting here and naming names such as Kibor, is rather not clever considering that your njumbiree gov't is in charge and I'm sure they will help you bring such allegations to court. Chances are higher that it won't. And by the way, you can be sued for making such wild allegations so be careful.
Only 3 people are suspects in this case after 5 years. What a great justice system we have here. We should all be proud to be africans who can deal with their own matters. What do those white colonialists who want to take all our minerals think they know.
Our record is clean, exemplary and one that the world should copy and replicate. Out of 1500 people killed, we have 3 suspects.
Personally I think that the problem is that there is no Raila to blame now for the killings in Mandera, Busia etc. Shamba la wanyama the kenyan version. Missing the point yet again! taking the same meaningless tangent that I spoke of before and missing the big picture i.e. AFTER IT HAS ALL BEEN SAID AND DONE - WHAT IS IN IT FOR 'ALMA'? Lets play this one to the end - right? Regardless of how this cookie crumbles (since it will crumble in one way or the other) - what will be the effect to Alma the firebreathing pro-west, pro-ICC justice seeking nairobian? will it be the same or different from that which is experienced by some pro-east, anti-ICC nairobian? When 'consequences' of 'choice' come over and some are done gloating, what will happen? How will the brownie points acquired from 'I told you so' assist you when those 'consequences' materialize??? the same thing to those who are vehemently shouting that the ICC is indeed an african court and may be justified in making those claims - play it to the end... WHAT IS IN IT FOR YOU? WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR KIDS FUTURE? WHAT IS BEST FOR KENYA? WHAT IS BEST FOR AFRICA? And do we sincerely think these wakosa melamine (both Chinese and Westerners) really give a rat's behind about our fate? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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McReggae wrote:washiku wrote:Uhuru and Ruto should be men enough and let the ICC process go on uninterrupted. It would be more honorable, or at least slightly honorable, if they allow that "personal problem" sorted out before thinking of dragging the whole Africa into a "personal" problem. Even if Africa were to pull out of ICC, it should be after they are through with their cases, or at least independently. If they believe they are innocent, as they have insisted, they need not worry a bit. Truth, after all, will set them free.
And by the way, why was ICC set up in the first place? Yes African heads have been targeted, but was there a reason why they are there in the first place? What shall be the alternative to sort those particular reasons? And further, those heads do not literary kill africans, they hire and finance and order people who does so...how shall those who are ordered or paid or hired by whatever means be punished? I have a feeling that if this particular section is punished, the so called leaders shall not have anyone to hire in future....
Uhuru na Ruto mutige wana...prove that u r men by fighting your case in court, and win if u r innocent. Up to this point, I treat u as innocent, because u have not been proved guilty. Please prove me right. donge?!!! ...and while at it, who took Africans to the Hague: List of the suspects who have been taken to ICC and who took them. 1 Bahr Idriss Abu Garda - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 2 Mohammed Hussein Ali - Somalia -Referred by own country 3 Abdallah Banda Abakeir - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 4 Omar al-Bashir - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 5 Jean-Pierre Bemba - DRC -Referred by own country 6 Muammar Gaddafi - Libya -Referred by own country 7 Saif al-Islam Gaddafi - Libya -Referred by own country 8 Laurent Gbagbo - Ivory Coast -Referred by own country 9 Simone Gbagbo - Ivory Coast -Referred by own country 10 Ahmed Mohammed Haroun - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 11 Abdel Rahim Hussein - Sudan -Prosecutor’s application 12 Saleh Jerbo - Sudan -Prosecutor's application 13 Germain Katanga (Simba) - DRC -Referred by own country 14 Uhuru Kenyatta - Kenya -Referred by own country 15 Joseph Kony - Uganda -Referred by own country 16 Henry Kosgey - Kenya -Referred by own country 17 Ali Kushayb - Sudan -Referred by own country 18 Thomas Lubanga Dyilo - DRC -Referred by own country 19 Raska Lukwiya - Uganda -Referred by own country 20 Callixte Mbarushimana - Rwanda -Referred by own country 21 Sylvestre Mudacumura - Rwanda -Referred by own country 22 Francis Muthaura - Kenya -Referred by own country 23 Mathieu Ngudjolo Chui - DRC -Referred by own country 24 Bosco Ntaganda - DRC -Referred by own country 25 Okot Odhiambo - Uganda -Referred by own country 26 Dominic Ongwen - Uganda -Referred by own country 27 Vincent Otti - Uganda -Referred by own country 28 William Ruto - Kenya -Referred by own country 29 Joshua Sang - Kenya -Referred by own country 30 Abdullah Al-Senussi - Libya -Referred by own country the problem with lies is that when they are repeated so often by prominent people - they start sounding like they are the truth. now here are the FACTS AS FROM THE ICC WEBSITE! Sudan conflict was referred to the Court by the United Nations Security Council (UNSC) on 31 March 2005. The UN Security Council referred the Libyan conflict to the ICC on February 26 2011 by Resolution 1970 - unanimously. Côte d’Ivoire - the prosecutor used his propriu motu powers to initiate an investigation without first having received a referral from a state or by the United Nations Security Council. Kenya - on 31 March 2010, the prosecutor used his “propriu motu” powers to initiate an investigation without first having received a referral from a states party or the United Nations Security Council. the only countries that have self referred are Uganda (when Kony left their country), DRC and CAR! RINKS http://www.iccnow.org/?mod=car
http://www.iccnow.org/?mod=kenya
http://www.iccnow.org/?mod=ivorycoast
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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Masukuma maybe you are too young to know but pan-africanism died when some AFRICANS killed Lumumba and some AFRICANS called Nyerere a fool What you are seeing at the AU is not pan-africanism. Its a bunch of overfed dictators making speeches to make you feel important. It seems you swallowed it hook line and sinker. As for my kids, I want them to grow knowing that it is important to do good to ALL human beings regardless of colour, race, melanine deficit or ranking in society. That one is judged by the content of their character and not shouting pan-africanism every time a wrong is pointed out. Thus far, despite the seasonal pan-africanist noise maker, I've succeeded. I find it funny that a few years ago, one Odinga Snr. was labelled enemy of development because he was a perceived communist. Now, the same fellows are saying the west is evil and the chinese are mini-gods. History is a good teacher and you will do well to read it. The history of the AU is hot air that is useless to human beings. And you can take that to the bank. But I would like to hear your opinion of one thing that the AU has done to improve the cause of the human race. Its a fight between the rich and the poor. Once you understand that, then we can talk. In the meantime, I would suggest that you stop believing everything you hear from Mugabe and Museveni. They really cannot be your children's role models. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/14/2007 Posts: 4,152
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Its interesting to note some of the reasons that were given by the US they didn't want to become a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court...Clinton administration claimed the treaty had "significant flaws"
"a number of serious objections to the ICC among them, the lack of adequate checks and balances on powers of the [Court's] prosecutor and judges; the dilution of the U.N. Security Council's authority over international criminal prosecutions; and the lack of any effective mechanism to prevent politicized prosecutions of American service members and officials."
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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This topic reminds me of a common case that happens to a few of us over time. Girl to boyfriend: Niko page Boyfriend: Nasi uliniambia uko sawa na nili withdraw Girl: haukotoa haraka boy: wewe wacha hata akina mike walitoa na wako sawa girl: lakini ili happen mtoi ni wako. NATAKA HALF! Choices have consequences. Kenya joined the ICC willingly Kenyans killed each other Kenyans failed to prosecute anyone Kenya said "don't be vague go the hague" Kenya even allowed Ocampo to come over and even saw a cheetah Tulale kwa hii kitanda because we did not withdraw when we had a chance. Mtoto ni wetu si wa AU. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/9/2007 Posts: 13,095
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TAZ wrote:Its interesting to note some of the reasons that were given by the US they didn't want to become a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court...Clinton administration claimed the treaty had "significant flaws"
"a number of serious objections to the ICC among them, the lack of adequate checks and balances on powers of the [Court's] prosecutor and judges; the dilution of the U.N. Security Council's authority over international criminal prosecutions; and the lack of any effective mechanism to prevent politicized prosecutions of American service members and officials."
That is ok. At least they realised it. The problem is African countries went through their own choice. I expect their AGs and other legal advisors had already gone through the process and should have advised them well. Coming back to say it was made to humiliate them yet they passed resolutions in their respective parliaments to join the court is purely hypocritical. Worse still is that they have refferred cases there themselves. Or did all those member countries daft enough to be swindled into joining the court?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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@masukuma, so now the ICC came for the Kenyan cases, one these one I was alive and kicking and can very well remember how the cases ended up there!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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McReggae wrote:@masukuma, so now the ICC came for the Kenyan cases, one these one I was alive and kicking and can very well remember how the cases ended up there!!!! actually - the truth is we never referred them. who referred the cases? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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alma wrote:Masukuma maybe you are too young to know but pan-africanism died when some AFRICANS killed Lumumba and some AFRICANS called Nyerere a fool
What you are seeing at the AU is not pan-africanism. Its a bunch of overfed dictators making speeches to make you feel important. It seems you swallowed it hook line and sinker.
As for my kids, I want them to grow knowing that it is important to do good to ALL human beings regardless of colour, race, melanine deficit or ranking in society. That one is judged by the content of their character and not shouting pan-africanism every time a wrong is pointed out. Thus far, despite the seasonal pan-africanist noise maker, I've succeeded.
I find it funny that a few years ago, one Odinga Snr. was labelled enemy of development because he was a perceived communist. Now, the same fellows are saying the west is evil and the chinese are mini-gods.
History is a good teacher and you will do well to read it.
The history of the AU is hot air that is useless to human beings. And you can take that to the bank. But I would like to hear your opinion of one thing that the AU has done to improve the cause of the human race.
Its a fight between the rich and the poor. Once you understand that, then we can talk. In the meantime, I would suggest that you stop believing everything you hear from Mugabe and Museveni. They really cannot be your children's role models. this is the problem - the way we are doing things what you are aiming at will not workout. the problem with africa is that we don't have commercially viable countries (with the exception of Nigeria, Egypt and to some extent Ethiopia). Everyone else sells their stuff to stay afloat. Our problems are unique... over 3000 languages and dialects spread across the continent (not like the nations of Indonesia who are separated by islands). We need to make this thing work so that you kid can enjoy whatever it is you are doing. The only way to get some respect on this planet is MIGHT! financial and Political Might. you don't need to like the people to respect them. PS. China was not part of the cold war! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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masukuma wrote:McReggae wrote:@masukuma, so now the ICC came for the Kenyan cases, one these one I was alive and kicking and can very well remember how the cases ended up there!!!! actually - the truth is we never referred them. who referred the cases? I can see masukuma is too young to remember The one simple fact we often intentionally forget on the International Criminal Court issue is that Mr Uhuru Kenyatta and Mr William Ruto are at The Hague-based court by choice. They asked and planned for it. They complained when Kofi Annan delayed to deliver the Waki envelope to Ocampo. They mobilised support against a special tribunal created and run in Kenya. They did this against all wise counsel. Further, they ridiculed and scoffed at those who preferred a local process and humiliated the President and Prime Minister when they mobilised Parliament to support a local tribunal. They won the day as attempts to establish a local mechanism were defeated. You can read the rest at http://elections.nation....8/-/10tq9hf/-/index.htmlJose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:McReggae wrote:@masukuma, so now the ICC came for the Kenyan cases, one these one I was alive and kicking and can very well remember how the cases ended up there!!!! actually - the truth is we never referred them. who referred the cases? When they started the investigations, we were given timelines to form the local tribunal and handle the cases ourselves, we trashed the efforts to do this three times and that's how the cases ended up at the ICC.......during all this time the accused were routing for the same ICC!!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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alma wrote:Masukuma maybe you are too young to know but pan-africanism died when some AFRICANS killed Lumumba and some AFRICANS called Nyerere a fool
What you are seeing at the AU is not pan-africanism. Its a bunch of overfed dictators making speeches to make you feel important. It seems you swallowed it hook line and sinker.
As for my kids, I want them to grow knowing that it is important to do good to ALL human beings regardless of colour, race, melanine deficit or ranking in society. That one is judged by the content of their character and not shouting pan-africanism every time a wrong is pointed out. Thus far, despite the seasonal pan-africanist noise maker, I've succeeded.
I find it funny that a few years ago, one Odinga Snr. was labelled enemy of development because he was a perceived communist. Now, the same fellows are saying the west is evil and the chinese are mini-gods.
History is a good teacher and you will do well to read it.
The history of the AU is hot air that is useless to human beings. And you can take that to the bank. But I would like to hear your opinion of one thing that the AU has done to improve the cause of the human race.
Its a fight between the rich and the poor. Once you understand that, then we can talk. In the meantime, I would suggest that you stop believing everything you hear from Mugabe and Museveni. They really cannot be your children's role models. this is the problem - the way we are doing things what you are aiming at will not workout. the problem with africa is that we don't have commercially viable countries (with the exception of Nigeria, Egypt and to some extent Ethiopia). Everyone else sells their stuff to stay afloat. Our problems are unique... over 3000 languages and dialects spread across the continent (not like the nations of Indonesia who are separated by islands). We need to make this thing work so that you kid can enjoy whatever it is you are doing. The only way to get some respect on this planet is MIGHT! financial and Political Might. you don't need to like the people to respect them. PS. China was not part of the cold war! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/9/2007 Posts: 13,095
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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masukuma I don't know about you, but my kids are currently enjoying the fruits of what I'm doing despite the 3000 dialects. To gain respect in life all you need to do is be true to yourself and do the right thing. If you need to show might, then you may be a bully. This Africa you keep on yapping about will NEVER have political or financial might as long as Nigerians sell oil but have dry gas stations in Lagos, Ugandans have Museveni and Mugabe is seen as a hero. I don't want to talk about the Kenyan situation as the guests are increasing in this thread. So on the issue of African Might whatever that may be, I don't think I will be seeing in my lifetime so I'll leave that to my kids. Now let me go to the BBA thread, that is as realistic as wazua is going to get today. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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