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Church leaders: Go to hell!!!
Fundaah
#61 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 9:29:12 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
You know ...Brewer & Masukuma
the term 'trained health professional' is used instead of 'trained medical doctor' because ...if you live in this country you know that there is shortage of Doctors with some district hospitals having only one or no Medical Doctor .....If we leave the the exception to 'Doctors' only , many women with involuntary miscarriages will die ...since nurses and clinical officers will not help them when they seek assistance to complete the involuntary miscarriages....

I hope you know that miscarriages do occur..
.daily ...and miscarriage is an abortion...do you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage

(I may add this shortage is because of the current bad constitution which does not give doctors trained in the country a chance to enjoy the fruits of their hard labour...hence brain drain)
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Brewer
#62 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 9:36:57 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
Fundaah, much as I find your explanation on 'trained health professional' unconvincing, it is a right step in the debate because we now agree that ABORTION IS PERMITTED in the draft.
Fundaah
#63 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 9:42:58 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
Brewer .... are you people really pro-life? if a miscarriage which is by definition an abortion..... should not be terminated for the sake of the woman ?....would you wish to lose both your wife and the baby ....when losing the baby only could safe the wife?...the foetus would die anyway?


just for your information


Miscarriage or spontaneous abortion is the spontaneous end of a pregnancy at a stage where the embryo or fetus is incapable of surviving, generally defined in humans at prior to 20 weeks of gestation. Miscarriage is the most common complication of early pregnancy
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
m water
#64 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 9:46:32 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/2/2009
Posts: 87
this abortion thing all boils down or points to one njoki ndungu. and you can quote me on that.
Fundaah
#65 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 9:47:45 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
Brewer wrote:
Fundaah, much as I find your explanation on 'trained health professional' unconvincing, it is a right step in the debate because we now agree that ABORTION IS PERMITTED in the draft.


and which part is not convincing ...just take a tour to the nearest district hospital and investigate how many medical doctors there are then let us know here.?..

and Yes, while Abortion prohibited in the draft ....it is permitted on special grounds for the sake of the womans health...ever heard of ectopic pregnancy ...
this can happen to any woman...and there will be no time to find out if it is legal of illegal to terminate that pregnancy

And suppose the constitution just ended at 'abortion is not permitted by law'..? what would be the fate of those women who face miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies ?
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Brewer
#66 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 10:04:48 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
Fundaah, I think we are making progress. To remain within the topic, though, now search (google will do) on the catholic canon laws on abortion and you will find reason for the stand of the Church leaders, at least the catholic ones, on this.
muganda
#67 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 11:20:20 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
Brewer wrote:
...on the catholic canon laws on abortion and you will find reason for the stand of the Church leaders, at least the catholic ones, on this.


I've come to learn that when churches learn they are as human as Mary Magdalene, they will teach more faith, hope, love as instructed (not no abortion)

Two points:
1. Much as we're agreed to condemn the woman who aborts, I see no concerted effort to include a framework to allow for the woman unconditional care and love, medical treatment during pregnancy, and adoption for the child born.

2. Witness controversy when Bishop in Brazil excommunicated mother and doctor, after rape of nine year old girl by her stepfather. I read a report by the doctor who carried out the abortion - it was a difficult decision for him because of this faith, threats, and looming excommunication. In my opinion as a sinner, he showed most love.
http://www.time.com/time.../0,8599,1883598,00.html
poundfoolish
#68 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 11:44:19 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
@ Masukuma "and hey on the reasons people abort are social...why are we looking to fix social problems medically?" At this cry a doctor told the clergy.... "If you have failed in your duty to prevent all this ills(read:immorality leading to abortion), can you then please let us deal with the consequences of your failures(salvage the little that has remained)?"
poundfoolish
#69 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 11:54:56 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
Still @Masukuma
Were we consulted when they included Kadhis in 1963 constitution..

The year is 1963, The whole continent is on change..independence and all.followed by the coups and counter coups..
Here is a British Protectorate landlocked... and the Sultans/Mazruis islands and coastal strips...the Shiftas in the North are blazing war to secceed into Somalia..

Question is would you have rathered plans for independence be halted till your grandfathers upcountry were educated and then asked to vote in a referendum, if the crucial coastal strip should be intergrated into the main land, or we simply end up landlocked?

The other alternative was to return the coast to the Sultanis, as a country (as Zanzibar was before Quasi-union with Tangayika) or give it quite some good autonomy(MAJIMBO)..

as much as the clergy have turned this matter religious, they need to read up some history as well.... i repeat, so far we have done so good as watu wa Bara assimilating and owning pieces of land at the cost..but truth be said..HIYO KIPANDE YA SHAMBA SIO YETU...
masukuma
#70 Posted : Monday, April 12, 2010 12:21:33 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@Fundah, I agree that miscarriages are abortions and consequently add to the over 300k 'abortions' that pro-choice people keep on crying about. my answer to that is that i would have agreed to the recommendation by Martha Karua made in parliament change the term 'Abortion' to 'Termination of pregnancy' but since our cowardly MPigs refused to change anything. we are where we are.
@poundfoolish, The clergy are sign posts to what is right , the choice is yours. If you let the church Christianize this nation and enforce morality as happened during the Spanish inquisition....you would not like it. The Clergy points to Light and Lets you make the choice. if the repercussions of choice affect someone else negatively - you should be made to pay. your rights end where another's begin.
How come we don't have Kadhis courts in Tanganyika? Just because Kenyatta made a mistake...we should not now extend the mistake inland?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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