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Standard Chartered
kizee
#61 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:25:56 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 537
why shud u pay the 0.04 if theres no value add to u? what do brokers do to justify this...i say we leave brokers to fend for themselves forcin them to innovate and add value...otc doesnt exclude brokers...0.04 is material if ur tradin in clips of 100mio...0.04 of 100mio for with nothing to show in return??? please make me understand why anyoen shud pay the 0.04...its actually 0.02 per counterparty...even 0.02 is absurd
Scubidu
#62 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:39:18 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@Kausha. You have good points...
@kizee. How do banks innovate when it comes to govt. bonds? Banks already own primaries...And how are brokers supposed to innovate...the fews brokers on leverage can only raise limited capital...if the issue is commissions, lobby to lower them...why don't the commercial banks just buy brokers? (and everything that comes with them...dealers, analysts, etc...)

Who comprises the membership of otc, who are the stakeholders and how can it be structured so as not to promote a cartel, if it's gonna self-regulate who takes on the role of the CMA?

“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
kizee
#63 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:46:05 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 537
an otc mkt is open to anyone...all u need is acess to a liquidity provider in said mkt..cud be a bank IB broker etc...brokers can innovate by actualy workin for theyr comiss...helpin banks fill orders...job the mkt provide research or increased acess to liquidity etc

i remember u askd why nigerian FI is ahead of kenyas ...well they hav an OTC mkt in nigeria...
VituVingiSana
#64 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:58:42 AM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
@kausha - Nonsense...

1) What exactly is 'buyside'...

2) 0.04% is too high... The lower the commissions, the higher the volume... the better the liquidity... Any margin goes... as long as it is a NET gain...

3) The issue is not whether banks can trade equities but the usurious rates we have to pay those lousy no-good brokers who add little value! The NSE & CMA are too stupid to realize that fixed commissions can spur volumes making the NSE much more attractive
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#65 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 12:00:58 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
@scubidu - Why shud a bank pay 200mn for a piece of crap broker who has (hidden) liabilities up the wazoo?

NIC Bank/Capital bought 60% of (Un)Solid Securities. Thereafter 3 years of write-offs!!! There were scams, hidden liabilities, etc...
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Kausha
#66 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:00:23 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/8/2007
Posts: 808
@Kizee
The OTC in Nigeria is there because the bond market was poorly developed. The only thing affording them discipline is that almost all banks and insurers own asset managers who do most of their trading. As the NSE gets more fixed income listings the market is becoming the main trading place while OTC is largely used for PTs.

And as for value addition, the reason why bank's struggle to receive value from brokers is because they actually don't know how to trade bonds, they want brokers to produce magic, the kind they are able to reproduce at forex markets where buyers are forced to pay because there are no options which is a classic case of what an OTC does. You find the US $ is going for say 76.84 mean rate at CBK. You walk into Stanchart it goes for 79 ask, 73 buy, Barclays 78.9 ask 73.2 buy, KCB 79.2 ask 73.8 buy. You query why the stupid spreads you are told cost of buying yap, yap!,trade margins, blah, blah, granted some business margin makes sense but not those kind of spreads from daily intermediation! Imagine is you traded both ways simoultaneously, it's theft by banks. Now the same dealers want the stock broker to fix /get for them simmilar ridiculous margins by say finding a buyer for an IFB3 8yr at 8.95%....the broker calls fund managers and is made to look very duft because this kind of offer is akin to the broker calling the fund manager to market to them Barclays shares at 75 yet in all honesty we know its unlikely to be worth that unless something fundamental changes in the next 3 years although at 55 it makes sense for instance. Obviously this doesn't fly, its moronic at the very least. The dealers get frustrated and argue the broker is not adding value because they bought the bond at the auction last week at 9.5% and want to sell it at 8.95 10 days latter and they want a nyani in the market to buy it at that price, you ask them why, it's worth that they can't tell you much. You call the same dealer for deposit placement they offer you 8.5% cash deposit rates yet they want you to also buy 8 yr paper at 8.5% yield. I seriously believe bank dealers don't understand bond trading that well. Now at OTC they reckon they can do what they do with forex trading which is transluscent trading reported on NSE, Bloomberg/ reuters and hoping to attract unsuspecting buyers. How is it that fund managers dont complain about value addition by brokers?

@VVS - a guy you heckle unnecessarily at times..how can you be one of the loudest wazuans on the investment section and you don't know what is buyside......anyone else i would explaing to but you i can't just go figure! and certain margins amount to churning aka working for the broker aka inflating your trading costs which you should consider in your trading strategy prior to execution.

Scubidu
#67 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:16:46 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@kizee. how will a broker have access to a liquidity provider, what purpose/incentive wud the broker provide to otc trades (unless there's an discreet implicit relationship between the dealers as it works now)...the reason why 5 players control 80% of secondary bond trading now is becoz the dealers in the brokerage and banks are forced to work together (collude). How is it that certain brokerage firms can loose an entire bond dep but still maintain market share (clientele) with other broker. Methinks the otc may not be open to everyone/anyone...and not accountable either.

Brokers have innovated... taken on leverage (some have loan of 100-200 mn for proprietary trading on the book-considered high risk by big banks so small ones fund them)...brokers have to take risk (not funded by citizens) and now investing in heavily research desks for greater market depth (just look at the poaching)...the NSE has price caps to prevent ordinary people from being dupped...no price caps on bond prices and you still want an otc to encourage irregular pricing (even though it will eventually be corrected). you're not giving them enuf credit.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Wa_ithaka
#68 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 2:26:10 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Kausha/Scubidu- u need to realise that some Wazurians payuka for effect. Ati OTC gives tighter liquidity? Have you ever heard of a financial instrument looking for tighter liquidity?
My friends even financial instruments that are hardly bought by normal banks such as CDS are being forced from OTCs onto someform of exchange. And I can tell you its not because of commissions.
The issue of commissions will be become past tense once NSE demutualises especially if CMA is smarter and allows more brokers...
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
VituVingiSana
#69 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 6:13:54 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
@kausha - I remain very, very curious... Pls explain the 'buyside'... especially for bonds in Kenya... If not for me, then for others who may wanna know...

The main reason OTC is even on the table is coz of high commissions...

Saying commissions will drop AFTER the banks agree to what brokers want is disingenuous... Why havent they dropped the horrendous commission rates to encourage trading?

Sorta kibaki saying... let me hire corrupt ministers so they can clean up the system!

A broker even told me I have the obligation to pay higher commissions on equity trades to 'help' build capacity... WTF??? [Needless to say I left & it is one of those who are in shyte]
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#70 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 6:16:27 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
Wa_ithaka wrote:
Kausha/Scubidu- u need to realise that some Wazurians payuka for effect. Ati OTC gives tighter liquidity? Have you ever heard of a financial instrument looking for tighter liquidity?


Who said "OTC gives tighter liquidity?"

What a load of crap... Financial instruments thrive on liquidity - Of course, it can also bite ya in the ass!
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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