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PCEA vs Kikuyu Kiama
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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Much Know wrote:If one can do some advanced math with symbols is that a religion? If someone does not understand what am doing does that make me religious just because i have mentioned Jesus. Is mentioning any factual aspect of the life of Jesus "religion" when he actually existed? Does believing in Keynesian economics or Freidman theory make them religions?  , are they factual? Why are they studied in university if they are not FACTUAL, they must be religions, right  What if what i read in other subjects in Bible strikes me as factual, that this figures existed, the fact that i believe this "debatable" element of my existence does not make me religious, because if the history is correct, am just a historian, just like Flavius Josephus the historian in Jesus time. What did Flavius say about Jesus? Maths is maths - tuwachane na maths. I once asked @Alph a question that I am asking you - what if I said Quote:Yesterday, I was watching the Matiba Funeral Service on TV and when I was glued on it - I saw my child jump on top of the sofa and fly around the room My son is factual and the sofa is factual... the thing most people have issues believing is that my son actually flew! Secondly, yes... Keynesian economics, the Austrian school of thought, Socialism, Nationalism, Capitalism, Imperialism, Veganism,Humanism, Individualism, Consumerism, Materialism are just really newer 'religions'. They have no 'god' per se and are less concerned about life after death but are almost all prescribe that their way is a better way of living. Kinda like Budhism I guess All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/25/2015 Posts: 839 Location: Kite
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masukuma wrote:Taurrus wrote:Lolest! wrote:Quote:Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal. Stupid own goal? Is the role of the church to encourage people to fill up church without caring what they believe in? That would be a big interreligious social club! Not church. The church has one big role-pointing people to Christ. Of course people offering sacrifices to ancestors defeats this aim! ancestor in American. (ˈænˌsɛstər ; anˈsesˌtər; also, ˈænsəstər ; anˈsəstər; ˈænsɪstər ; anˈsistər) any person from whom one is descended, esp. one earlier in a family line than a grandparent Sasa what's more important than where you descended from? it's a sure thing,not a myth as @masukuma puts it, to me it's worth a goat now and then.  Your ancestors are not a myth - what drives your reverence to them IS! the idea that makes you subjectively deduce that 'reverence to your ancestors is worth a goat now and then' is the myth we are talking about! it's an idea... something in your head... that is why you said Quote:it's a sure thing,not a myth as @masukuma puts it, TO ME it's worth a goat now and then. - very subjective. let's test this - what happens if you don't give a goat "now and then"? what happens? Happiness! yes happiness Don't happen TO ME! kuna kukaa na kuishi.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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Taurrus wrote:masukuma wrote:Taurrus wrote:Lolest! wrote:Quote:Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal. Stupid own goal? Is the role of the church to encourage people to fill up church without caring what they believe in? That would be a big interreligious social club! Not church. The church has one big role-pointing people to Christ. Of course people offering sacrifices to ancestors defeats this aim! ancestor in American. (ˈænˌsɛstər ; anˈsesˌtər; also, ˈænsəstər ; anˈsəstər; ˈænsɪstər ; anˈsistər) any person from whom one is descended, esp. one earlier in a family line than a grandparent Sasa what's more important than where you descended from? it's a sure thing,not a myth as @masukuma puts it, to me it's worth a goat now and then. Your ancestors are not a myth - what drives your reverence to them IS! the idea that makes you subjectively deduce that 'reverence to your ancestors is worth a goat now and then' is the myth we are talking about! it's an idea... something in your head... that is why you said Quote:it's a sure thing,not a myth as @masukuma puts it, TO ME it's worth a goat now and then. - very subjective. let's test this - what happens if you don't give a goat "now and then"? what happens? Happiness! yes happiness Don't happen TO ME! kuna kukaa na kuishi. exactly... it's a promise - if you could only do X - you will be 'happy'! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 4,058 Location: Gwitu
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Wakanyugi wrote:FundamentAli wrote:tycho wrote:Na free masonry ni ukristo? PCEA has linkage with that fraternity. They have never disowned it Not just PCEA. Most mainstream Church Cathedrals were built by the Guild of the free Masons. That is how practically every Free Mason lodge came to be located near a Church. It was a shelter for 'watu was mjengo' True that. In Nairobi it is near St Andrews,All Saints Cathedral, Lutheran ,Holy family minor basilica and even the Synagogue! Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/5/2010 Posts: 2,459
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Kaigangio wrote:
You still have not answered my question and I repeat again...What does Muratina in Ciama cia Athuri or other Kikuyu ceremonies symbolise?
Absolutely no idea. But I had an akward encounter a while back. An old friend had built a home in the village and had invited us for the house warming. Turns out most of his friends were " athuri a kiama". The muratina was brought and a " ruhia" given to each of us. At some point one of the wazees pointed at me and wondered why i was holding the ruhia wrongly. Of course I laughed it off. Only to realize the rest of the guys were not amused. I had to apologize and one of the guys took me on a crash course on how to drink muratina from a ruhia. That is why I likened the ciama to a members club with very strict protocols.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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FRM2011 wrote:Kaigangio wrote:
You still have not answered my question and I repeat again...What does Muratina in Ciama cia Athuri or other Kikuyu ceremonies symbolise?
Absolutely no idea. But I had an akward encounter a while back. An old friend had built a home in the village and had invited us for the house warming. Turns out most of his friends were " athuri a kiama". The muratina was brought and a " ruhia" given to teach of us. At some point one of the wazees pointed at me and wondered why i was holding the ruhia wrongly. Of course I laughed it off. Only to realize the rest of the guys were not amused. I had to apologize and one of the guys took me on a crash course on how to drink muratina from a ruhia. That is why I likened the ciama to a members club with very strict protocols. The party that your friend invited you to was just like any other ordinary goat eating session which from the traditional view point had no purpose or reason. That is why those wazees allowed you in their midst. For a normal Kiama session they would not allow you to sit with them unless you have been admitted to the Kiama, but here again you still cannot be allowed to sit with them unless you have graduated from hako to Ndegwa. Doing things right in Kiama is a part of the lessons you get not forgetting that at some point in time you will be expected to give the same lessons to young learners. All in all traditionally any slaughtering of ngoimas had a reason and a purpose and so did the brewing of muratina. Believe me, Ciamas are not a members club, but rather they are open to any young man (Mûkamatimû) who wishes to join. At least the fathers (who must be members of kiama) usually do clear the road for their sons by giving the hako (ngoima) to the Kiama. As for symbolic meaning of mûratina in Agîkûyû ceremonies and other traditional practices it had to be there being provided by the owner of the ceremony. To start with though we call it Njoohi (meaningless beer nowadays) it is actually supposed to be Njohi (something that ties together). In say for example where dowry and the in-laws (Athoni) are concerned, the mûratina brew had to be present as a symbol of unification of the two families following the intended union of their daughter and son and is taken in very small amounts. As to when it was delivered and the container is fodder for another day. In Ciamas mûratina brew symbolizes the unification or unity of the participating members such that whatever the members will deliberate on will be done in one voice. Here one may take as much as he wants so long as he does not get drank to the point of talking disrespectively. I hope that opens your eyes kidogo as to purpose of the Ciama cia Athuri and how they operate. ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:@masukuma, myths are not the triffling things that you present them as.
And myths are never arbitrary.
Also know there can never be pure intersubjectivity without objectivity. Far from it -myths are some of the best things we humans have ever come up with. they guide our everyday lives and have fashioned us into the species we are today. this does not change the fact that they are MADE UP! some are important, cute but still MADE UP! Just like movies - not all myths are rated the same. some are better than others. Newer movies tend to be better than old movies as more thought has been put in and they have been developed around a more comprehensive worldview. The same thing with myths - not all myths are the same and GENERALLY speaking... myths that have had more thought put into them and developed in the context of a much more comprehensive worldview are more productive to the adherents than older parochial myths. We therefore cannot allow ourselves to be bullied into following myths that have no consequence - it's rather daft to allow yourself to do so. What is the appeal of this 'Kiama' myth? what is the threat being used to lure people into this 'Kiama' myth and propagate it?? @masukuma, to make this discussion easy I'll ask you the following: 1. What is/are the myths involved in this case? 2. Who made them up? 3. Why were they made up?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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But considering guys are being hounded by yam eating lions and 'auctioneers', I can understand why @alma has become a theologian.
His ancestor is not Gikuyu but is Constantius. And even if it is Gikuyu he has absolutely nothing to do with the Man. Maybe Adam Kadmon.
Or, Gikuyu is a made up story and we have no need of it now.
We have been washed by the blood of Jesus.
I'd love to know what Dr. Githii is saying about this.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Quote:Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal. Stupid own goal? Is the role of the church to encourage people to fill up church without caring what they believe in? That would be a big interreligious social club! Not church. The church has one big role-pointing people to Christ. Of course people offering sacrifices to ancestors defeats this aim! So you think numbers don't matter? Why do you bother with all those Ministry for Christ etc stuff? Because reaching as many people as possible for Christ is the great commission. But if within your ranks you have people who think ancestral worship is superior, then you should do some internal housekeeping. Before going out there, preach to those in church so that they can see the light
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Quote:I hope that opens your eyes kidogo as to purpose of the Ciama cia Athuri and how they operate. Interesting insights gizzard. But that part for offering sacrifices is the source of conflict. You say it's not usually there but others say it's there and they'll keep doing it. Infact, they justify it by drawing parallels with biblical sacrifices by Abraham etc
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