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Deconstructive theology
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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symbols wrote:tycho wrote:symbols wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Today I have learned that it's impossible to love my neighbor as myself if the currency of exchange extends beyond love and into other things like money, food, clothing and the like.
As such I wonder whether the Gospel isn't inadequate afterall, in its assertion that God gave us his son as a sacrifice because he loved us.
Or even, could we say that Christ loved us more than he loved himself to the extent of crucifixion?
If the crucifixion was an act in which God and Christ loved themselves as they loved us, was it then an act of salvation for Man?
Am asking this because I suspect my previous belief about love has led me to nothing but loss and anger at the human, and more specifically, myself. It's like a grand delusion revealed.
How can the 'currency of exchange' extend beyond love? What can be greater than love? Money? Food? Clothing? Surely if the premise is faulty, the conclusion is plain wrong and should not even be read. Would you say that someone's arguments represent their experience? People are trapped in and by their own minds seeking and propagating individual and shared 'realities'. What does this mean? The mind,like the body,imposes its demands on you.With the body,it's easily discernible but with the mind it's difficult because we don't distinguish between the mind and ourselves,but rather we view it as who we are.Hence the mind can structure reality,actions and experiences to satisfy and protect itself. I'd argue that the mind and body are one.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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Muriel wrote:symbols wrote:Muriel wrote:symbols wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Today I have learned that it's impossible to love my neighbor as myself if the currency of exchange extends beyond love and into other things like money, food, clothing and the like.
As such I wonder whether the Gospel isn't inadequate afterall, in its assertion that God gave us his son as a sacrifice because he loved us.
Or even, could we say that Christ loved us more than he loved himself to the extent of crucifixion?
If the crucifixion was an act in which God and Christ loved themselves as they loved us, was it then an act of salvation for Man?
Am asking this because I suspect my previous belief about love has led me to nothing but loss and anger at the human, and more specifically, myself. It's like a grand delusion revealed.
How can the 'currency of exchange' extend beyond love? What can be greater than love? Money? Food? Clothing? Surely if the premise is faulty, the conclusion is plain wrong and should not even be read. Would you say that someone's arguments represent their experience? People are trapped in and by their own minds seeking and propagating individual and shared 'realities'. Not necessarily. For example, I can be the devil's advocate. I do not have that experience and I am not trapped by that reality. It doesn't make a difference whether it's experience or role-play as long as the mind gets what it wants. I think it does make a difference. 'Trapped' implies restriction. How can I be trapped when I can switch sides at will? Switching or not switching sides doesn't mean you are not trapped.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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tycho wrote:
I'd argue that the mind and body are one.
Why? I'd argue that the body speaks through the mind and the mind can speak through the body.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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symbols wrote:tycho wrote:
I'd argue that the mind and body are one.
Why? I'd argue that the body speaks through the mind and the mind can speak through the body. So if you have a head transplant who is King? I avoided this thread like the plague. Couldn't resist that one. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
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alma wrote:symbols wrote:tycho wrote:
I'd argue that the mind and body are one.
Why? I'd argue that the body speaks through the mind and the mind can speak through the body. So if you have a head transplant who is King? I avoided this thread like the plague. Couldn't resist that one. Who was King before the transplant?
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/1/2008 Posts: 323
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tycho wrote:jokes wrote:I have No doubt that there is a superior being that created our world.
Even if i understand the scientists theories of self organization in matter to create and evolve life there has to be a beginning an inception, interceptor, a trigger, a creator(s)
saying there is No creator, inventor, originator is like saying a car created itself??
or a computer materialized itself replicated....
Even if scientists have solved many questions we fail to see how it all started due to as Tycho says underutilized brain power.
which brings the question why are we only utilizing 5%, why is this so? is it intentional?
The other is the limitation of our life(lives.
By the time we solve a problem we are dead or disaster happens to destroy a progressing civilization.why? pre-programmed self-correcting to keep us in a state of ignorance?
Man created his world, and he uses a small percentage of his power because he's deeply alienated from himself and the universe. Don't you think it was intentional to create man to be trapped a slave unaware ignorant in a prison. what we are doing here and has been done before through philosophy theology physics and other disciplines is to try and escape this prison
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Let me share a personal story to explore my experience of love. I was ten years old and on this particular day, on a Sunday, we were having a Sunday school discussion somewhere on the grass. And suddenly the question popped into my mind. Why was I experiencing so little love? I doubted the love that was claimed to be at home, and now here was my teacher, my classmates, and I doubted them too. And I experienced a kind of loneliness and sadness. And there was this itching on my head.
Then the teacher turned to me and said, 'na wewe. . .' our eyes met, and I waited for him to finish what he was saying. But he didn't. He left it that.
Later that day I discovered from a brother that I had lice on my head. And suddenly my head underwent the most rigorous cleaning. Jik, kerosene, shampoo, rexona. . . then shaving. And all through this process it was like being under anaesthesia. Things were happening to me but I had no say over the process.
Later when my hair was growing again I discovered some of my hair was now white. I learned it was the Jik. And life continued.
Your turn, advocate.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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jokes wrote:tycho wrote:jokes wrote:I have No doubt that there is a superior being that created our world.
Even if i understand the scientists theories of self organization in matter to create and evolve life there has to be a beginning an inception, interceptor, a trigger, a creator(s)
saying there is No creator, inventor, originator is like saying a car created itself??
or a computer materialized itself replicated....
Even if scientists have solved many questions we fail to see how it all started due to as Tycho says underutilized brain power.
which brings the question why are we only utilizing 5%, why is this so? is it intentional?
The other is the limitation of our life(lives.
By the time we solve a problem we are dead or disaster happens to destroy a progressing civilization.why? pre-programmed self-correcting to keep us in a state of ignorance?
Man created his world, and he uses a small percentage of his power because he's deeply alienated from himself and the universe. Don't you think it was intentional to create man to be trapped a slave unaware ignorant in a prison. what we are doing here and has been done before through philosophy theology physics and other disciplines is to try and escape this prison Or, when Man found himself in the prison and saw that it was overwhelming he needed an idea, a being that would overcome all this and give meaning to the present.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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alma wrote:symbols wrote:tycho wrote:
I'd argue that the mind and body are one.
Why? I'd argue that the body speaks through the mind and the mind can speak through the body. So if you have a head transplant who is King? I avoided this thread like the plague. Couldn't resist that one. Energy-mass equivalence should explain both arguments here. As long as an energic state is established, then all information available and accessible at the level follow.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Let me share a personal story to explore my experience of love. I was ten years old and on this particular day, on a Sunday, we were having a Sunday school discussion somewhere on the grass. And suddenly the question popped into my mind. Why was I experiencing so little love? I doubted the love that was claimed to be at home, and now here was my teacher, my classmates, and I doubted them too. And I experienced a kind of loneliness and sadness. And there was this itching on my head.
Then the teacher turned to me and said, 'na wewe. . .' our eyes met, and I waited for him to finish what he was saying. But he didn't. He left it that.
Later that day I discovered from a brother that I had lice on my head. And suddenly my head underwent the most rigorous cleaning. Jik, kerosene, shampoo, rexona. . . then shaving. And all through this process it was like being under anaesthesia. Things were happening to me but I had no say over the process.
Later when my hair was growing again I discovered some of my hair was now white. I learned it was the Jik. And life continued.
Your turn, advocate.
Does jik bleach hair that is inherently, essentially black, the absence of color, vacuum, to white, the presence of all color?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Let me share a personal story to explore my experience of love. I was ten years old and on this particular day, on a Sunday, we were having a Sunday school discussion somewhere on the grass. And suddenly the question popped into my mind. Why was I experiencing so little love? I doubted the love that was claimed to be at home, and now here was my teacher, my classmates, and I doubted them too. And I experienced a kind of loneliness and sadness. And there was this itching on my head.
Then the teacher turned to me and said, 'na wewe. . .' our eyes met, and I waited for him to finish what he was saying. But he didn't. He left it that.
Later that day I discovered from a brother that I had lice on my head. And suddenly my head underwent the most rigorous cleaning. Jik, kerosene, shampoo, rexona. . . then shaving. And all through this process it was like being under anaesthesia. Things were happening to me but I had no say over the process.
Later when my hair was growing again I discovered some of my hair was now white. I learned it was the Jik. And life continued.
Your turn, advocate.
Does jik bleach hair that is inherently, essentially black, the absence of color, vacuum, to white, the presence of all color? I don't know if there's hair that's essentially black. I am hearing today that black isn't a color.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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When I trace my experience backwards, when I consider my present and when I compare and contrast it with what science and tradition says about Man, I realize that what my heart wants can't be found in its entirety while I possess this body. The energic state of humanity is too restricting. Even if I can increase the use of my mind, I'll still be limited if I am to respect other people's experiences and allow them freedom.
The most I can do is have a cycle of deconstructing and reconstructing my soul. Every day.
Leo Buscaglia has written this book about love (he says it was a collective effort of his 'love class'), and in it he reminds us that love is learned behavior that allows the other to get into a deeper form of self knowledge and appreciation.
Somehow, I feel I am better off as a lover and human now, than I have ever been.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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tycho wrote:When I trace my experience backwards, when I consider my present and when I compare and contrast it with what science and tradition says about Man, I realize that what my heart wants can't be found in its entirety while I possess this body. The energic state of humanity is too restricting.
These are wise words indeed (sorry for walking into your debate). It is often said that good drivers are able to identify so much with their vehicles that they come to feel as one with the machine. Most of us are pretty good drivers of our earth vehicles. As a result we ted to identify so much with the body that we confuse the vehicle for the driver. Of course the reality is rather different. Our true selves are not our bodies - in fact our ultimate potential is only fully realized when we overcome the limitations of the earth vehicle. I believe this is one of the reasons we are here. As JC sang in that famous Andrew Loyd Weber rendition, Jesus Christ Superstar "To conquer death, all we have to do is to die." "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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symbols wrote:Muriel wrote:symbols wrote:Muriel wrote:symbols wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Today I have learned that it's impossible to love my neighbor as myself if the currency of exchange extends beyond love and into other things like money, food, clothing and the like.
As such I wonder whether the Gospel isn't inadequate afterall, in its assertion that God gave us his son as a sacrifice because he loved us.
Or even, could we say that Christ loved us more than he loved himself to the extent of crucifixion?
If the crucifixion was an act in which God and Christ loved themselves as they loved us, was it then an act of salvation for Man?
Am asking this because I suspect my previous belief about love has led me to nothing but loss and anger at the human, and more specifically, myself. It's like a grand delusion revealed.
How can the 'currency of exchange' extend beyond love? What can be greater than love? Money? Food? Clothing? Surely if the premise is faulty, the conclusion is plain wrong and should not even be read. Would you say that someone's arguments represent their experience? People are trapped in and by their own minds seeking and propagating individual and shared 'realities'. Not necessarily. For example, I can be the devil's advocate. I do not have that experience and I am not trapped by that reality. It doesn't make a difference whether it's experience or role-play as long as the mind gets what it wants. I think it does make a difference. 'Trapped' implies restriction. How can I be trapped when I can switch sides at will? Switching or not switching sides doesn't mean you are not trapped. Yes, I am in prison. The prison of freedom.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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What does 'freedom' mean, Muriel?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Wakanyugi, could the soul, my soul, be a depository of many body experiences? That my body-mind is just a 'tip of the iceberg'?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:What does 'freedom' mean, Muriel? Freedom is an experience. It is not a definition.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:What does 'freedom' mean, Muriel? Freedom is an experience. It is not a definition. Do experiences have meaning? Okay. Can the experience of freedom be shared?
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:What does 'freedom' mean, Muriel? Freedom is an experience. It is not a definition. Do experiences have meaning? Okay. Can the experience of freedom be shared? Would you say that someone's argument, or description, represent their experience? Would you say people are trapped in and by their experiences?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:What does 'freedom' mean, Muriel? Freedom is an experience. It is not a definition. Do experiences have meaning? Okay. Can the experience of freedom be shared? Would you say that someone's argument, or description, represent their experience? Would you say people are trapped in and by their experiences? Yes you would. Trapped and limited. Hence true, freedom is an experience. Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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