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Glaring Errors in the Draft Constitution
alma
#51 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:35:02 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Applause Applause You know what. I would love to have a tusker with you. You give as good as you get..Applause

I was having a very bad day trying to virus affecting sites online, when I was directed by a client to this post....you can imagine I didn't think it was funny.

However, you just made me laugh big time.Applause hope to see you at the mbuzi.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
Ngalaka
#52 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:35:59 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566

Ok guys steam off.
Back to the issues bedevilling the proposed constitution.

Whats the way out of the quagmire.
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
masukuma
#53 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:43:30 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@Ngalaka, No way out we just have to vote on this silly typo draft. whose content does not make sense.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
sky5
#54 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 4:00:27 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/7/2010
Posts: 282
Location: Nairobi
How can we go to the referendum to vote for a document with unknown words?

We all know that to correct one word or even add/remove a comma requires a referendum once the constitution is passed. Who will pay for another referendum.

I thought the document was proof-read. Even a spellcheck would have corrected some of the errors. The workman/womanship is unacceptable. The process should be halted by a court order and a good document produced.
B.Timer
#55 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 4:06:19 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
Mpenzi wrote:
copy and pasted ....


> PRESS STATEMENT
>
>
> UNACCEPTABLE ERRORS IN THE PROPOSED CONSTITUTION OF KENYA
>
> Whereas the Proposed Constitution of Kenya that was launched by the
> AG is written in British English, there are many foreign words that
> litter the document?s text. The text of the Proposed Constitution
> neither highlights nor provides a glossary of the following foreign
> words:
> a. Article 24(2)(b) the word ?fundmental?
> b. Article 92(i) ? the word ?politcal?
> c. Article 95(4)(c) - ?expediture?
> d. Article 115(3) the word ?amendeds?
> e. Article 173(4) the word ?Judicary?
> f. Article 216(4) the word ?comission?
> g. Article 250(8) the word ?indepenedent?
> h. Article 254(3) the word ?commisssion?
> i. Third Schedule ? In the Oath? for a Cabinet Secretary
> the word ?Presidentfor?
>
> Are the following missing clauses deliberate loopholes for later
> mischievous insertions after the Proposed Constitution is ratified,
> especially given that already we have more than one version of the
> document in circulation?
> a. Article 41(3): Sub-clauses (a), (b), (c) and (d) are missing;
> b. Article 103(1)(e)(i) refers to a Clause 2 which is missing;
> c. Fourth Schedule, Part 1: Clause (27) is missing
> d. Sixth Schedule, Part 6: Sub-Clause (27)(2) is missing
>
> Why are there two Sub-Clauses numbered (b) in Clause 234(3)? Which
> one is binding when reference is made to Clause 234(3)(b)?
>
> What is the meaning of Clause 20(3)(a)? Should the words "does not
> give" be replaced with the word "gives" for it not to undermine the
> mandate of the Judiciary? If it is supposed to stop courts from
> creating new rights and freedoms then it does not say so. What it
> does is to undermine the entire Bill of Rights.
>
> Other glaring mistakes in the Proposed Constitution of Kenya include:
> a. Article 163(1) the phrase ?There is established the
> Supreme Court, which shall consists of?
> b. Article 260 the phrase ??county legislation? means a law
> made by a county government or under under authority conferred by a
> county Assembly?;
>
> We are interrogating the Proposed Constitution of Kenya to audit its
> doctrinal soundness and architectural integrity. That audit has
> already unearthed ninety-three problems. We will release the results
> of our audit to the public when done, hopefully, next week.
>
> It is unacceptable for a document that is going to be the foundation
> of the Republic of Kenya to be so recklessly drafted. Hence, mid
> next week, KEJUDE will petition the Honourable Independent
> Constitutional Dispute Resolution Court seeking, among others,:
> (i) An official declaration that the Proposed Constitution of
> Kenya fails the integrity test and must be redrafted to fix all
> errors, including those not highlighted above; or
> (ii) That an addendum of amendments required to fix the errors
> must be introduced at a multiple question referendum; and
> (iii) That the planned single question YES-NO referendum be
> declared a nullity in toto.
> (iv) That no translations of the original English version of the
> document should be undertaken into any other language until the
> meanings of the foreign words is given.
>
> We, therefore, call upon President Mwai Kibaki and Premier Raila
> Odinga, the Committee of Experts and those organisations and
> individuals currently conducting civic education, the Interim
> Independent Electoral Commission preparing for the planned YES-NO
> referendum, and all those involved in any process aimed at imposing
> this faulty Constitution on Kenyans to immediately stop wasting
> public funds and endangering the Republic. To impose the faulty
> Constitution, that will make Kenya practically ungovernable, is a
> frightening act of war on the people of Kenya.
>
> In the meantime, we call on the Hon. Attorney General Sitswila Amos
> Wako, and the entire team that assisted him edit the said document,
> to immediately own up for failing Kenya in such a monumental way.
>
> Finally, we affirm that we want a new Constitution. But we do not
> think that anything that is not the current constitution is what the
> people of Kenya crave. And, even though we recognise that because
> human beings are not perfect their works cannot be perfect either,
> we strongly believe that not being perfect does not stop us from
> pursuing perfection as an ideal. We have an obligation to try to be
> perfect. Hence, when we come across mistakes, we are bound to
> rectify them, not to learn how to live with them.
>
> Signed:
>
> Okiya Omtatah Okoiti - 0722-684-777
>
> Director,
> Kenyans for Justice and Development (KEJUDE) Trust
> Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010



I just confirmed most of the errors highlighted here.
Boy, was the AG and his minders high on some percentage laden beaverage!
serious!
If it were just the spelling mistakes, mmmmm......, may be,- but missing sections that are clearly quoted for refence!
Different section bearing same reference!

We cant let the document go to referundum that way.

Something got to give.

Over to you Mr. President.
Dunia ni msongamano..
B.Timer
#56 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 4:34:29 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...osts&t=6498&p=5



My post #84 in the thread above - I argued that one of the problems in this process is that we constrained ourselve so much with strict and unrealistic time frames.

Due to the worry over getting time barred, we rushed things merely to beat time, at the alter of diligence.

Even when we were all agreed that there was need for certain amendnments, we failed to seize the opportunity on account of limited time.

You would think Kenya had a deadline to beat to stay on the globe!

Now see where we are.

Dunia ni msongamano..
kadonye
#57 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 8:38:48 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
Some people are very intolerant!what's so hard in accepting other people's decisiöns?Will nanfor blame politicians when she metes post election violence on masukuma?
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
muganda
#58 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 8:55:47 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
Late to the party again - shikes. My take:

1. There are several apparent spelling and grammatical errors in the United States Constitution — both the original articles and the Bill of Rights

2. I took some time to go through all the errors in our Proposed Constitution. Three kinds of errors: misspellings, misnumbering, wrong phrases.
Surprisingly the draft I had previously downloaded gave a different picture: The Proposed Constitution by CoE As Approved by National Assembly (1st April 2010)

i. whereas misspellings occur, only one character is misplaced in almost all cases
ii. all cases missing articles and clauses are actually mistakes in the multilevel numbering in print/newspaper copy. They do not occur in the PDF file
iii. of the two cases of 'glaring' errors in phrase, PDF is correct for the first issue and writer wrongly interpreted second issue.


So I think it's very positive that constitution is analyzed and discussed at this level. And you can't blame NO camp for taking advantage - it's only human.

What is damaging though is over 95% of those who react to the errors will not have read the 211 pages with over 49,700 words - myself included!

And thus it remains, as with most things human, form over substance Sad
B.Timer
#59 Posted : Saturday, May 22, 2010 9:20:47 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
@Muganda,

I hear you buddy.
I must say I appreaciate your level-headedness and push for the greater good for Kenya.
Kudos for that.

Having said that, I hazard that you may agree with me that;

- Kenyans will be going to the Referundum to vote on the proposed constitution as PUBLISHED by the AG and not the PDF file copy or any other for that matter.

-Some of the errors leave us at loss when it comes to quoting and/or invoking those articles, that are hopelessly mixed up.

- It is significant when the constitution itself, refers us to an article within itself, which article is absent/non-existent. Such a constitution is 'hanging', incomplete and confusing.

- Interpretation of the constitution with such errors, even by the most well intentioned legal mind, becomes something of a guess work - law is supposed to leave no doubt as to its meaning.

Forget the mispelling , just re-look at the areas quoted below (in blue).

People demanding that these anomalies be addressed in a manner that builds integrity for the document, are not necessarily NOists, neither is it a problem when people in NO point out mistakes that ought to be corrected.
Infact those who draw the contry's attention to such problems are friends of Kenya, real Patriots.

The guy who tells you that you fly is open is a friend indeed, as opposed to the guy you sees it, giggles, and hopes that you meet your Mother inlaw that way.



a. Article 41(3): Sub-clauses (a), (b), (c) and (d) are missing;
> b. Article 103(1)(e)(i) refers to a Clause 2 which is missing;
> c. Fourth Schedule, Part 1: Clause (27) is missing
> d. Sixth Schedule, Part 6: Sub-Clause (27)(2) is missing
>
> Why are there two Sub-Clauses numbered (b) in Clause 234(3)? Which
> one is binding when reference is made to Clause 234(3)(b)?
>
> What is the meaning of Clause 20(3)(a)? Should the words "does not
> give" be replaced with the word "gives" for it not to undermine the
> mandate of the Judiciary? If it is supposed to stop courts from
> creating new rights and freedoms then it does not say so. What it
> does is to undermine the entire Bill of Rights.



My take then is ;-

That we need to "stop press", reflect and restrategise. Only then shall we move on, with confidence.
While at it, we may also seize the opportunity to address the LEGITIMATE issues raised earlier by various groups ( and I mean only the legitimate concerns).
Infact this may be a godsend opportunity for us to make the proces even more inclusive.
Talk of blessing in disguise.
Dunia ni msongamano..
muganda
#60 Posted : Saturday, May 22, 2010 12:39:41 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
@B.Timer, good stuff - humbled. And I agree anyone who keenly points out these errors is doing the right thing - intentions vary though, as does their gravity.

A body of laws (even when correct) just remains that, until it is tested and interpreted. The interpretation of the judiciary, when there's any reason for ambiguity, always includes whether intention can be discerned.


Now on to the issues:
MISNUMBERINGS:
Article 41: Wrong to say clauses are missing. Mistake was instead of numbering as (a)/(b), they were numbered as (e)/(f)

Article 103: Refers to clause 2 which is missing. Mistake was instead of numbering following clause (2), it was numbered as (3), as all drafts until the last one shows

4th Sch 27: This one has been missing all along. As schedule describes function of National Government, new word cannot be added.

6th Sch 27(2): Refers to clause (2) which is missing. Misnumbering of following clauses (3) (4), instead of (2) (3) only in the last draft again.


PHRASES:
Article 234: Last clause numbered (b) in error. All previous drafts and positioning shows it should be (d)

Article 20: (3) In applying a provision of the Bill of Rights, a court shall—
(a) develop the law to the extent that it does not give effect to a right or fundamental freedom;
My understanding is the court cannot alter/amend/reduce (give effect) the right or freedom in its interpretation - the constitution is sacrosant.



I was surprised to see we required assistance of Federal Republic of Germany to print constitution. Since these errors were introduced in the last draft, it is not unrealistic to expect government to alter numbering only, and only numbering to reflect COE draft. Even if this wasn't done, I believe it is possible to discern the intention.

One last point, even if we Stop-Press as suggested, there will still be clerical errors and disagreements over a new draft - that's just life.
The world is conquered by those who solider on, when all say nay, against all odds, to the promised land!
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