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Seeds of Sin ...
Mukiri
#51 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:44:47 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
masukuma wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
masukuma wrote:
nostoppingthis wrote:
surprised that the names of these pastors are from one part of our beloved country....

EXACTLY!! let me teach you guys what to do... just look at the billboard of the church you want to attend - if it has a man of God on it... usiende huko hiyo ni biashara!! last week nikitafuta abstract ya gari yangu iliyo ibiwa I intercepted a very revealing conversation. I was at Nyayo stadium police station when Pastor Muriethi of House of Grace was brought in... sijui ilikuwa ameshikiwa nini but that is not important atakuwa Kortini kesho... its how the police talked about him that was shocking... One policeman was introducing him as saying - unajua huyo mtu? yeye ndio mwenye kanisa ya "house of grace"! the second policeman was like "Kanisa ni yake ama ni ya Mungu?" to which the first policeman answered - "Kanisa ni ya mwenye ANACHUKUWA SADAKA!"

I don't quite understand the highlighted statement. Please fafanua

its a simple test really... who is the "face" of the church? is it an individual? if you remove that individual does the church die? ukiona kibao iko na "Apostle XYZ" usiende huko.... u will just be fired up in readiness for harvest!

Makes sense.

If I may ask, what happens to a charismatic pastor who falls out with a mainstream church? What should his fate read?

the fall out in rarely about doctrine! its most certainly about 3 things that plague pastors.
1. Wealth (Money)
2. Fame (Glory)
3. Women
When a young pastor thinks that they are being used to bring 1,2 to an elderly MOG they will pull out! instead ya kufanyia huyo jamaa kazi! this comes because after serving under the pastor the youngman or woman realize that this guy is human! he has struggles and is possibly struggling with 1 or more of the 3 things that plague MOGs. most of the times MOGs agree to scratch each of their backs. I made a decision along time ago never to attend a church founded on disobedience and dissent!

Maybe I didn't quite put across my question well. I'll give an example... We both belong to CITAM. In CITAM we have moving pastors. God forbid that one of them should have a falling out, what is the cards for such a Man of God after he's repented?

he needs to come back to the ministry bwana...

Na akikataliwa?

Proverbs 19:21
masukuma
#52 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:49:25 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Mukiri wrote:
The Clown wrote:
I have to defend my Christian faith here. This feature by Dennis Okari was clearly made with a contemptuous attitude towards Christians and their beliefs.

One, Dennis dresses up in a collar and makes mention of how easy it is to acquire one. He also does a lot of his monologues with a cross in the background. What purpose does this serve other than to pour scorn upon these symbols of Christianity?

Two, they take a practicing atheist and get her to learn all about 'preaching like a christian' before letting her loose on an unsuspecting congregation. How better to mock the faith than getting an atheist to pretend to minister to a few people and watch how quickly they get deceived?

Three, there was a total lack of objectivity in this feature. Why didn't Dennis interview a genuine man or woman of God to ask them for their views about the fake preachers? There are many who are passionate about God's work and are not in it for money but to serve God.

Lastly, Dennis is himself practicing the same deception he goes out to condemn. Did he bother to tell the poor men and women who attended his meetings that it was all a phony show? Among those poor people there may have been some who were genuinely thirsting for God's word. How do they feel now that they have been portrayed as being gullible on national TV? What will become of their spiritual need?

Applause Applause Applause Someone asking hard questions and looking at things objectively.

forget Denis and his antics... discussing them is diversionary the question is "WOULD JESUS ATTEND OUR CHURCHES?"...kuuziwa Mafuta ya elianto? come on!! lets face the naked truth... many of these so called ministries ni biashara!!

2 Timothy 3-9
Quote:

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Lolest!
#53 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:51:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Yes, Mureithi of House of Grace is ex-CITAM. So is Steve Mutua who was at NPC Ngong before he started his church opposite KCB Training centre, Karen. I respect CITAM for its strictness. Hakuna kuhubiri ati begu and bless the pastor and such nonesense. You do it you receive summons to appear before elders. Pastors are salaried staff and are also under strict budgets and may have to get chums from a different vote. If such are not instituted, the sin of Gehazi((2 kings 5) are prone to happen
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
Mukiri
#54 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:52:39 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
kysse wrote:
I have helped build where I no longer worship cz after you have built the church breaks off from the mainstream (mother ),so you have to move to a rented building and start building or contributing to buy the place all over again.

I stopped going to church deliberately and stayed home to sober up and normalize.

Been invited severally to attend House of Grace by one of the pastors...I thought the guy had substance kumbe he will be in court tomorrow. argh.

But I like one Pastor Mwalili,the teacher and less dramatic one.


in the meantime am mkorino.

It is now understandable where your hate comes from.

Matt 10:21, 35... If one goes to Church because of people, such a person is bound to be disappointed when inevitably, as is with all spheres of life, there's a falling out. If the Bible talks about parents, children falling out, how worse for non family members? Purpose to serve in a church, because of God, not because of man or what you perceive to be ideals. Otherwise bitterness and hate shall be your death.

Proverbs 19:21
jaggernaut
#55 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:55:29 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389

Lolest! wrote:
Yes, Mureithi of House of Grace is ex-CITAM. So is Steve Mutua who was at NPC Ngong before he started his church opposite KCB Training centre, Karen. I respect CITAM for its strictness. Hakuna kuhubiri ati begu and bless the pastor and such nonesense. You do it you receive summons to appear before elders. Pastors are salaried staff and are also under strict budgets and may have to get chums from a different vote. If such are not instituted, the sin of Gehazi((2 kings 5) are prone to happen

^^That is why i am a catholic.
Mtu Biz
#56 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:59:27 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
Mtu Biz wrote:
tycho wrote:
I don't think there's anything like a church that doesn't fleece and enslave her members.

Only that some use sophisticated methods and institutions.


Depends on your definition of 'Church'.

The church in scripture is the fellowship those who have trusted in Jesus Christ and are born again, born not of natural descent or a husbands will, but born of God.(John 1:13 soma yote)

The Church in Scripture had no requirements on its members as far as money of goods or even time.
Everything was offered freely without compulsion.

No Indulgencies to pay
No seeds to plant
No tithes to pay
No firstfruits to pay
No love offerings etc
No arcs to move :)
No holidays to pay for
No Ministry to partner with
No standing orders to fill out
No pledge forms to commit to


Everything that was ever given was given freely without compulsion.

There is a story in scripture where Christians were sharing everything they had so that they would be more or less equal..and that the needy would not lack. One couple Ananias and Saphira after selling their land did not disclose the whole amount to the apostles and was asked,

Acts 5:1-11
Quote:

"4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”


Meaning? He didnt even have to give it in the first place!
The issue the apostles has with this is not that it was not the full amount but that they chose to lie about the amount.
There would have been zero problems if they just kept everything to themselves.

But because he wanted to conform to the prevailing mood of giving everything albeit deceptively and kept something back for themselves, they both died.

This scripture has of course been mutilated to scare people who do not examine scripture for themselves into thinking that Almighty God would kill you for your money.

Who on earth, in heaven or under the earth can ever give anything to God ?

Even your 'righteousness' does not benefit him in any way.. or your wickedness diminish him.

Job 35
Quote:

5 Look up at the heavens and see;
gaze at the clouds so high above you.
6 If you sin, how does that affect him?
If your sins are many, what does that do to him?
7 If you are righteous, what do you give to him,
or what does he receive from your hand?
8 Your wickedness only affects humans like yourself,
and your righteousness only other people.


Sola Scriptura


Mukiri
#57 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 12:06:45 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
masukuma wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
The Clown wrote:
I have to defend my Christian faith here. This feature by Dennis Okari was clearly made with a contemptuous attitude towards Christians and their beliefs.

One, Dennis dresses up in a collar and makes mention of how easy it is to acquire one. He also does a lot of his monologues with a cross in the background. What purpose does this serve other than to pour scorn upon these symbols of Christianity?

Two, they take a practicing atheist and get her to learn all about 'preaching like a christian' before letting her loose on an unsuspecting congregation. How better to mock the faith than getting an atheist to pretend to minister to a few people and watch how quickly they get deceived?

Three, there was a total lack of objectivity in this feature. Why didn't Dennis interview a genuine man or woman of God to ask them for their views about the fake preachers? There are many who are passionate about God's work and are not in it for money but to serve God.

Lastly, Dennis is himself practicing the same deception he goes out to condemn. Did he bother to tell the poor men and women who attended his meetings that it was all a phony show? Among those poor people there may have been some who were genuinely thirsting for God's word. How do they feel now that they have been portrayed as being gullible on national TV? What will become of their spiritual need?

Applause Applause Applause Someone asking hard questions and looking at things objectively.

forget Denis and his antics... discussing them is diversionary the question is "WOULD JESUS ATTEND OUR CHURCHES?"...kuuziwa Mafuta ya elianto? come on!! lets face the naked truth... many of these so called ministries ni biashara!!

2 Timothy 3-9
Quote:

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you
Boss bwana! What is?

There is your point and there is @Clown's point. Both weighty matters different things. You cannot just brush aside what he has said!

There is an outright attack of Christianity. The same Chapter you have quoted, Paul talks about persecution. A guarantee for Christians and the Church. And people need to be made aware of it.

Why? So as not to shun Church for the mistakes of a few bad sheep. They are not the norm, they are exceptions!

Proverbs 19:21
masukuma
#58 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 12:09:55 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
Yes, Mureithi of House of Grace is ex-CITAM. So is Steve Mutua who was at NPC Ngong before he started his church opposite KCB Training centre, Karen. I respect CITAM for its strictness. Hakuna kuhubiri ati begu and bless the pastor and such nonesense. You do it you receive summons to appear before elders. Pastors are salaried staff and are also under strict budgets and may have to get chums from a different vote. If such are not instituted, the sin of Gehazi((2 kings 5) are prone to happen

@Mukiri unakumbuka hawa? if people fail to bring themselves under the submission of elders they will start mushrooming churches all over. I was once part of a church planting group of believers back in Naks. so one day a friend's father was requested to preach after a good showing during bible study. He turned down the request and when I had a talk with him one sunday afternoon he told me "UNTIL I KNOW WHO XYZ IS I WILL NOT PREACH IN HIS CHURCH"... i thought the said pastor was OK but about a year later drama and findio came out about adultery cases. the life lesson i took from that point in time is that TIME HAS A WAY OF EXPOSING PEOPLE. We wait! So I wait... if someone like Lai has escaped all these things from the early 90s when his program used to grace our screens as from 4:30 pm(his program used to follow that silly italian program - interbang‽). most of these people you see today will not be there in 10 years - why? one of those 3 weaknesses will haunt them. Money generally shows up in "pada begu" type messages.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#59 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 12:12:54 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Mukiri wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
The Clown wrote:
I have to defend my Christian faith here. This feature by Dennis Okari was clearly made with a contemptuous attitude towards Christians and their beliefs.

One, Dennis dresses up in a collar and makes mention of how easy it is to acquire one. He also does a lot of his monologues with a cross in the background. What purpose does this serve other than to pour scorn upon these symbols of Christianity?

Two, they take a practicing atheist and get her to learn all about 'preaching like a christian' before letting her loose on an unsuspecting congregation. How better to mock the faith than getting an atheist to pretend to minister to a few people and watch how quickly they get deceived?

Three, there was a total lack of objectivity in this feature. Why didn't Dennis interview a genuine man or woman of God to ask them for their views about the fake preachers? There are many who are passionate about God's work and are not in it for money but to serve God.

Lastly, Dennis is himself practicing the same deception he goes out to condemn. Did he bother to tell the poor men and women who attended his meetings that it was all a phony show? Among those poor people there may have been some who were genuinely thirsting for God's word. How do they feel now that they have been portrayed as being gullible on national TV? What will become of their spiritual need?

Applause Applause Applause Someone asking hard questions and looking at things objectively.

forget Denis and his antics... discussing them is diversionary the question is "WOULD JESUS ATTEND OUR CHURCHES?"...kuuziwa Mafuta ya elianto? come on!! lets face the naked truth... many of these so called ministries ni biashara!!

2 Timothy 3-9
Quote:

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you
Boss bwana! What is?

There is your point and there is @Clown's point. Both weighty matters different things. You cannot just brush aside what he has said!

There is an outright attack of Christianity. The same Chapter you have quoted, Paul talks about persecution. A guarantee for Christians and the Church. And people need to be made aware of it.

Why? So as not to shun Church for the mistakes of a few bad sheep. They are not the norm, they are exceptions!

why would you think persecution of the church will only come from outside? think about it! the woman who took poison - who persecuted her? where is the greatest damage to the church coming from? the Muslims we love to hate? Christians themselves? Atheists?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Mukiri
#60 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 12:40:43 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
masukuma wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
The Clown wrote:
I have to defend my Christian faith here. This feature by Dennis Okari was clearly made with a contemptuous attitude towards Christians and their beliefs.

One, Dennis dresses up in a collar and makes mention of how easy it is to acquire one. He also does a lot of his monologues with a cross in the background. What purpose does this serve other than to pour scorn upon these symbols of Christianity?

Two, they take a practicing atheist and get her to learn all about 'preaching like a christian' before letting her loose on an unsuspecting congregation. How better to mock the faith than getting an atheist to pretend to minister to a few people and watch how quickly they get deceived?

Three, there was a total lack of objectivity in this feature. Why didn't Dennis interview a genuine man or woman of God to ask them for their views about the fake preachers? There are many who are passionate about God's work and are not in it for money but to serve God.

Lastly, Dennis is himself practicing the same deception he goes out to condemn. Did he bother to tell the poor men and women who attended his meetings that it was all a phony show? Among those poor people there may have been some who were genuinely thirsting for God's word. How do they feel now that they have been portrayed as being gullible on national TV? What will become of their spiritual need?

Applause Applause Applause Someone asking hard questions and looking at things objectively.

forget Denis and his antics... discussing them is diversionary the question is "WOULD JESUS ATTEND OUR CHURCHES?"...kuuziwa Mafuta ya elianto? come on!! lets face the naked truth... many of these so called ministries ni biashara!!

2 Timothy 3-9
Quote:

3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you
Boss bwana! What is?

There is your point and there is @Clown's point. Both weighty matters different things. You cannot just brush aside what he has said!

There is an outright attack of Christianity. The same Chapter you have quoted, Paul talks about persecution. A guarantee for Christians and the Church. And people need to be made aware of it.

Why? So as not to shun Church for the mistakes of a few bad sheep. They are not the norm, they are exceptions!

why would you think persecution of the church will only come from outside? think about it! the woman who took poison - who persecuted her? where is the greatest damage to the church coming from? the Muslims we love to hate? Christians themselves? Atheists?

Yes, they came from all over. From internally, as you want to stress and from externally especially from the devil!

You should note, NOBODY IS PERFECT! Trying to judge is against the teachings of God. Mistakes are all over, hata CITAM if you went in with a microscope (kama za watu wengine hapa), you will un-earth something no matter how minute.

It is how we start shouting and making noise when a wolf is exposed, but don't do the same shouting and making noise in praise of a good shepherd, that is not fair. It will lead people astray.

Proverbs 19:21
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