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IS HEAVEN A PHYSICAL PLACE OR A STATE OF MIND?
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@ChessMaster, you are saying that the signified exists independent of the signifier. How can this be?
When you say 'reality' you are just using another symbol. You are inviting us to partake in a certain world view. And a view can only be a construction.
We have already defined sight as focusing, differentiating, then integrating.
With sight, speech becomes possible, and so does the world!
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/14/2012 Posts: 201 Location: nairobi
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tycho wrote:bigbossman wrote:tycho wrote:@sky5, you are saying that 'earth' has an independent existence from Man. And 'world' is a creation of Man.
But perception itself is a construction by the mind.
Therefore, when we perceive 'earth' we are constructing it. 'Mountain' as a word also denotes attitude, relationship, expectations and the like.
For example, can a tree exist, independently of man? Of course not! I don't expect a leopard to have the same symbol and meaning for the thing I call tree! But why do u deny that heaven just like earth is an abstraction? Abstraction? I am saying construction. if u are saying the earth is mind's construction and in another breath u deny heaven is an abstraction u seem to contadict yourself. Isn't abstraction the processing of a particular experience exclusively by one of the following four psychological functions: sensation, intuition, feeling, and thinking—which would normally function in relation to each other? LIFE IS SO GOOD
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/15/2012 Posts: 1,110
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tycho wrote:
'A rock' means an instance of 'a point of reference called rock'.
Where is this point of reference? Mind.
All these things you are sensing are determined by your tools of perception, and they have defined ranges of operation.
Understand the gist of my statement before bothering to reply.
Reality is mind-independent..whether you acknowledge it or not.
Fact 1: Rocks, trees, moon and stars exist..
Fact 2: The rock is made of granite and the moon is spherical.
The fact that the moon, the stars and the rocks exist is independent of what anyone says or thinks about the matter. This is independent of your language and conceptual schemes.
However, when it comes to something constructed by human beings, the matter is quite different. For example, if I say that the seat is hexagonal, this is dependent on me. After all, the seat was constructed by a human being.
In this light, heaven is a physical place irregardless of what you think or say. Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@bigbossman, 'Earth is a construction. Heaven is a construction'.
When you say 'abstraction' is an 'exclusive' use of a 'psychological fool's; then I may concur. But does this ever happen?
Thinking without feeling? No way. Thought always has an aim. Even fantasy has an aim, and the aim always involves feeling. All these tools are goal oriented, they are always constructive.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/23/2009 Posts: 1,626
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The signified gains significance in the eyes of the signifier but the object remains independent of what he/she sees. Reality as a word is a symbol of a concept. Perception occurs when our senses receive and attempt to interpret external stimuli. This external stimuli independent of the interpretation of the receiver is reality. It is absolute. How does the world become possible with speech?I find that to be an interesting thought but I still can't make a connection. Uncertainty is certain.Let go
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:
'A rock' means an instance of 'a point of reference called rock'.
Where is this point of reference? Mind.
All these things you are sensing are determined by your tools of perception, and they have defined ranges of operation.
Understand the gist of my statement before bothering to reply.
Reality is mind-independent..whether you acknowledge it or not.
Fact 1: Rocks, trees, moon and stars exist..
Fact 2: The rock is made of granite and the moon is spherical.
The fact that the moon, the stars and the rocks exist is independent of what anyone says or thinks about the matter. This is independent of your language and conceptual schemes.
However, when it comes to something constructed by human beings, the matter is quite different. For example, if I say that the seat is hexagonal, this is dependent on me. After all, the seat was constructed by a human being.
In this light, heaven is a physical place irregardless of what you think or say. Am I right to say that the gist of your argument is 'heaven is a physical place?' I agree. Let's consider the statement, 'reality is mind independent whether you like it or not'. What is reality? Someone once said 'reality' is 'significance'? Can it be anything else? If then you concur that reality is significance, it follows that there must be an evaluation, an ordering. All these can't be independent of the mind! Knowledge would even be impossible or inexistent!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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ChessMaster wrote:The signified gains significance in the eyes of the signifier but the object remains independent of what he/she sees.
Reality as a word is a symbol of a concept. Perception occurs when our senses receive and attempt to interpret external stimuli. This external stimuli independent of the interpretation of the receiver is reality. It is absolute.
How does the world become possible with speech?I find that to be an interesting thought but I still can't make a connection. 'The object' implies isolation. Only the signifier can isolate. Before that, everything is formless. That is, the act of creation is the act of isolation, distinction, seperation. And only the Word, the Symbol, can do this. And the Word must be with the signifier. The signifier's agenda must reign supreme for there even to be a world.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/14/2012 Posts: 201 Location: nairobi
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tycho wrote:@bigbossman, 'Earth is a construction. Heaven is a construction'.
When you say 'abstraction' is an 'exclusive' use of a 'psychological fool's; then I may concur. But does this ever happen?
Thinking without feeling? No way. Thought always has an aim. Even fantasy has an aim, and the aim always involves feeling. All these tools are goal oriented, they are always constructive. Thinking and feeling and not thinking without feeling. And u are creating an experience of the external world with those psychological tools which in the real sense u are constructing(seems that's what u want to hear) your world or your experience of the world. LIFE IS SO GOOD
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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bigbossman wrote:tycho wrote:@bigbossman, 'Earth is a construction. Heaven is a construction'.
When you say 'abstraction' is an 'exclusive' use of a 'psychological fool's; then I may concur. But does this ever happen?
Thinking without feeling? No way. Thought always has an aim. Even fantasy has an aim, and the aim always involves feeling. All these tools are goal oriented, they are always constructive. Thinking and feeling and not thinking without feeling. And u are creating an experience of the external world with those psychological tools which in the real sense u are constructing(seems that's what u want to hear) your world or your experience of the world. 'Exclusive' means 'or'. 'And' is 'inclusive'. Therefore, we agree. No abstraction. That is why you are taking 'earth', and 'reality' as 'concrete'. In that similar sense, the 'heaven' I am in, is both 'real' and 'concrete'. This is how heaven is a world, we are invited to create. And because all people can get to heaven through transformation; we can transform our world into a new world. We can face our present crises collectively and constructively with the assuredness of success.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/14/2012 Posts: 201 Location: nairobi
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tycho wrote:bigbossman wrote:tycho wrote:@bigbossman, 'Earth is a construction. Heaven is a construction'.
When you say 'abstraction' is an 'exclusive' use of a 'psychological fool's; then I may concur. But does this ever happen?
Thinking without feeling? No way. Thought always has an aim. Even fantasy has an aim, and the aim always involves feeling. All these tools are goal oriented, they are always constructive. Thinking and feeling and not thinking without feeling. And u are creating an experience of the external world with those psychological tools which in the real sense u are constructing(seems that's what u want to hear) your world or your experience of the world. 'Exclusive' means 'or'. 'And' is 'inclusive'. Therefore, we agree. No abstraction. That is why you are taking 'earth', and 'reality' as 'concrete'. In that similar sense, the 'heaven' I am in, is both 'real' and 'concrete'. This is how heaven is a world, we are invited to create. And because all people can get to heaven through transformation; we can transform our world into a new world. We can face our present crises collectively and constructively with the assuredness of success. Am sorry. yes, thought or feeling and not thought and feeling. As much as the direction of flow of your thoughts will usually determine the direction of your feelings, most of the time a single thought does not determine the state of your feelings. Yes, that initial thought could exclusively lead to some perception of something. Your state of feeling is usually the result of a sequence of thoughts. LIFE IS SO GOOD
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IS HEAVEN A PHYSICAL PLACE OR A STATE OF MIND?
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