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Jubilee Holdings results FY2010 profit jumps 84 pct
Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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guru267 wrote:youcan'tstopusnow wrote:deal, did Jubilee make an underwriting profit or loss? guru is talking about an underwriting loss while in your blog you mention "Underwriting profits increased by 42 percent to 523 million shillings in 2010". @youcant please do not listen to @the deal... He's research seems fllawed... Jubilee made an undewriting profit growth of 42% to half a billion shillings... (best in the industry) They then decided to inflate the claims of their life business by 1.5 billion so as to surpress the profits and cushion bad years... ( source AGM) THERE WAS NO UNDERWRITING LOSS @guru267, deal research is not flawed. Jubilee made an UNDERWRITING LOSS OF KES 258,580,000. And if we were to assume they inflated their insurance claims by KES 1.5B the underwriting income would not be half a billion shillings and it would not be the best in the industry. Check your digits and come out clearly on this one
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/5/2010 Posts: 335 Location: Nairobi
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the deal wrote:@Guru you were right all along...Jub didnt make any underwriting losses...they just inflated their claims which is quiet acceptable...thus the correct way to evaluate an insurance business is through the balance sheet...thats what Buffet uses...i read his 2004 letter to shareholders...he focuses on 2 key metrics...1. Float and 2. Return on Float.  In summary... Their UNDERWRITERS made money... Their PORTFOLIO / ASSET MANAGERS made money... "I'd rather be lucky than clever... every time!" - ME
"The problem is not what we don't know... it's what we know for sure that just ain't!" - MARK TWAIN
"Space we can recover... time never!" - NAPOLEON BONAPARTE
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/25/2009 Posts: 4,534 Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
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Jub would make Buffet smile...i discovered his secret to why BH is so successful and Jub is just doing that...the Key is FLOAT...JUB is so undervalued.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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@the deal, you seem to be one person who is easily swayed by wind. Elaborate on this float that has swayed you this time round. Hope you are not trying to pump and dump this counter
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/25/2009 Posts: 4,534 Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
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invest0r wrote:@the deal, you seem to be one person who is easily swayed by wind. Elaborate on this float that has swayed you this time round. Hope you are not trying to pump and dump this counter Its no pump and dump..its real..i'm just busy with exams at the moment i will show you how...pump and dump has no ethics..i did it once i wil never do it again. 
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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@the deal, we'll patiently wait to hear what are your findings about Jubilee float. And FYI, when the firm makes underwriting losses, then it ceases in its function as an insurance firm to create good float
@guru267, your response to post 101 will be welcomed.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/27/2008 Posts: 3,760
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Might the change of auditors have had anything to do with inflating claims 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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invest0r wrote:@the deal, we'll patiently wait to hear what are your findings about Jubilee float. And FYI, when the firm makes underwriting losses, then it ceases in its function as an insurance firm to create good float
@guru267, your response to post 101 will be welcomed. @investor this is not a big deal... Go to jubilees website download their annuaal report.. Here you will find in detail on how they made an underwriting profit of half a billion.. You will also find the inflated pension claims that caused the loss you are talking about. There is nothing new with what they are doing.. The NSE, CMA and the auditors all approved so whats the problem Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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@guru267, the auditors (PWC), NSE and CMA cannot do that willy nilly. PWC certified the books as true after they were satisfied that they presented the state of affairs of Jubilee. This books show an underwriting loss of KES 258,580,000. It is this books that were sent and accepted by NSE and CMA. Every informed person knows that some organisations tend to overstate their revenue and understate their expenses (and viceversa). If auditors find this when doing their audit, they usually insist on the books been amended to the true state and if this is not done, they give an adverse opinion. You and people like you with vested interest in Jubilee could have wanted the books to show an underwriting profit but the auditors had to present the true state that JUBILEE MADE AN UNDERWRITING LOSS
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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invest0r wrote:@guru267, the auditors (PWC), NSE and CMA cannot do that willy nilly. PWC certified the books as true after they were satisfied that they presented the state of affairs of Jubilee. This books show an underwriting loss of KES 258,580,000. It is this books that were sent and accepted by NSE and CMA. Every informed person knows that some organisations tend to overstate their revenue and understate their expenses. If auditors find this when doing their audit, they usually insist on the books been amended to the true state and if this is not done, they give an adverse opinion. You and people like you with vested interest in the Jubilee could have wanted the books show an underwriting profit but the auditors had to present the true state that JUBILEE MADE AN UNDERWRITING LOSS @investor forgive me for thinking you were an accountant... He who bases their investing decisions solely on income statements is in for a fall... Did you hear the awards the company was showered with: 1. General insurer of the year 2. Medical undewriter of the year 3. Claims settlement runners up 4. Customer service runers up 5. Number one pension plan... Jubilee was one of the only insurance companies in the world to post profit growth during the height of the global recession... I think the NSE was down that year 30% and jub still grew their profits through isurance Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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@guru267, you have diverted from the matter we were tackling. And FYI, I am not an accountant, a finance analyst or an economist. But I have good understanding of these fields because they are very important for an investor. Now you know when investing, I would consider a load of things
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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invest0r wrote:@guru267, you have diverted from the matter we were tackling. And FYI, I am not an accountant, a finance analyst or an economist. But I have good understanding of these fields because they are very important for an investor. Now you know when investing, I would consider a load of things If so then why do you keep on saying they had an underwriting loss of 258million when basic accounting shows an underwriting profit of 543million for jubilee unmatched by any other... I cant wait when they hit 1 billion in underwriting profits and some will still call it a loss..  Dont you think they would have been investigated if they reported two results Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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@guru267, we are talking about underwriting loss therefore one cannot avoid mentioning it. Don't get petty. Present your digits of how you are arriving at an underwriting profit of 543mio
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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invest0r wrote:@guru267, we are talking about underwriting loss therefore one cannot avoid mentioning it. Don't get petty. Present your digits of how you are arriving at an underwriting profit of 543mio www.jubileeholdings.comAnnual report 2010.. PDF REfer to: 1. Chairmans statement 2. Note 2.4 3. Note 6 4. Note 8 I rest my case... Happy fishing! Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 3/25/2011 Posts: 946
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when will the extra shares (bonus) start trading...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/25/2009 Posts: 4,534 Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
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@investor from the balance sheet i was able to deduce weather Jub overpaid in claims or not...what i don't know weather they were deliberate inflated claims or real claims which came thru and Managemnt is hiding...Tangible Book Value(TBV) for JUB is Ksh 179...this stock normarlly trades X2 its TBV...so fair value of JUB is around 350 bob there.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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@the deal, thank you. I am a keen reader of your work and it is very good @guru267, here are my concluding remarks 1. Your last post no 114 was supposed to present the digits but you have opted for an evasive response. This makes one think that you know you are wrong but you cannot admit it. 2. The chairman’s statement is in complete contradiction with the audited accounts (refer to post 109 in this case). 3. Note 2.4 are an integral part of the audited accounts. Every investor should read it and understand how the premiums and claims are measured and recognized. 4. Note 6 and Note 8 clearly show that Jubilee made an underwriting loss of KES. 258,580,000. The digits are: Net insurance premium revenue 5,360,136,000 Less: Net insurance claims 5,618,716,000 Underwriting loss 258,580,000 5. To let you know that Jubilee is far from the best in terms of underwriting performance, have a look at this comparative analysis of insurance companies from @kenyainvesting.blogspot.com. http://kenyainvesting.bl...rative-analysis-of.html
I rest my case too. Happy fishing too.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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@investor please act professional.. Are you asking me to believe a BLOG over the chairmans statement??? SERIOUSLY!!!! Do you really invest basing on blogged information?? You asked for figures and I provided... If you were well versed with insurance you would know that not all benefits will be included in the calculation of underwriting profits... Note 2.4 describes the fact that it is possible to inflate claims... And remind me why youve chosen to ignore the chairmans statement where he states underwriting profit?? Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/25/2009 Posts: 4,534 Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
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hehehe @investor like @guru says that blog tells you nothing now lemme teach you something...Float comes from insurance...and Jub has the highest Float in EA so their the no 1 insurer in EA...now what's float? lemme explain in layman terms's...if you go to Jub and take out a life policy it doesnt mean you will die today but you will be paying for it (premiums) so an insurer will take this free money a.k.a Float and invest for better returns while their still waiting for your claim...now the best insurer's have high float and a low combined ratio a.k.a as cost of float...in 2009 JUB had 6 B Ksh in float and a combined ratio of 85% (super good)...with that 6 B Ksh they would have bought Unga pty ltd or do many things with it..with your Free money this is how Buffet got Rich...a well run insurance company is a MONEY MAGNET...now in 2010 Jub's float shrunk to around Ksh 4 B as claims accelerated...the combined ratio shot above 100%...do you see the correlation of the two...a low float and a high combined ratio means the imsurer is struggling i.e Britak falls in tha category...now JUB's 2010 float of Ksh 4 B is still da best in EA hence their no 1 insurance king pins.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/15/2010 Posts: 162
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@guru267, read my concluding remarks properly. To make it clear to you, the chairman’s statement contradicts the auditors report and so it’s prudent to go with the independent auditor’s report that is certified as true and accepted by NSE and CMA.
And note that I have not related the blog and the chairman’s statement in any way. The blog is presented for a comparative analysis of the insurance companies.
GET PROFESSIONAL ON THIS MATTER, @GURU
@the deal, the blog made a comparative analysis of the insurance companies. If you may, please do a comparative analysis the insurance companies in your blog. I respect your works and it will be good to see your point of view.
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Jubilee Holdings results FY2010 profit jumps 84 pct
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