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Wa_ithaka
#41 Posted : Monday, March 08, 2010 5:32:33 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
See we are back in the trenches again.
The proposed OTC for bonds to work alongside the NSE is a nonsense. Especially at a time when the trend is to move away from trading public financial instruments in the bar. If JSE with more sophisticated financial infrastructure has realised the inherent corruptness of an OTC, why would we be wanting to go there?
My view is that even shares should all be traded in a transparent market i.e. its very easy to create a market for the likes of Transcentury, Telkom et al with lower requirements...
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
kizee
#42 Posted : Monday, March 08, 2010 5:39:11 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 537
with u all the way on ur point vvs...hey lemme say this...im an FX trader...fx is an OTC market..however i utilize the services of 4 brokers...the reason why is there is some value add in theyr offerin...i thnk we need an OTC fixd income mkt first...brokers cud still broke bonds as long as they r willin to add value and thus justify theyr comissions..the current structur wher u must use a broker to trade is untenabl
VituVingiSana
#43 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:12:02 AM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
@wa-ithaka

You are missing the point (not the first time)... the MAJOR reason the banks want an OTC is coz of the outrageous fees charged by brokers, NSE & CMA...

A pity stock investors dont boycott the bastards for their horrendous charges!

Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
kizee
#44 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:15:02 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 537
the jse actualy bot the SA bond exchange once it realized how lucrative bond trading was there was never an issue of corruption...
Scubidu
#45 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:15:10 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
kizee. I don't know how much cma wants to charge the banks for the license, do tell me...so who would comprise the membership of the otc? And do free market principals really apply to banks, particularly when they're backed by a central bank...if we had free banking principles wouldn't banks take on the liquidity risk in the HRT mart and not borrow from CBK overnight windows...

Okay I'm not a bond trader so I may confuse some issues but don't you think short selling will lead to abuse, cos they're no profit caps on bond prices (like in equities)...could they manipulate prices all in the name of making a market? What did you mean, by bond guys adding value?

@vvs. so what I'm understanding is that brokers/nse/cma are milking too much from banks...it sounds like they've been making billions...if the commissions structure is the issue why not just amend them. Who are the beneficiaries of the primary bond market? Now banks want control of the secondary market as well.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Wa_ithaka
#46 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:32:12 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
One of thangs I thank God for is that today, information is freely avaliable. It has helped those who can curb the natural tendency to spout BS.
Vvs/Kizee, please read the JSE article on changing from a bond OTC here.
In a word, the JSE knows that an OTC is a cartel at best and promotes nothing but the income of the participants. Notice who are the players making noise about OTC being removed. That will be StnaChart et al in afew yrs when its recognised that an OTC in publicly traded financial instruments goes against the tenets of free market. Not to mention the promotion of stable financial system

If an investor can't make more than 4% to break even after broker commissions and CMA fees, then you in the wrong game. Go lend at 20%...
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
VituVingiSana
#47 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 7:43:41 AM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
@wa - huh?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
kizee
#48 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 8:00:25 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 537
where is the article wa-ithaka? i was in a sub comittee that went to the jse last yr and what i said was a verbatim account of what a JSE officer told me...htf is an otc a cartel? an otc mkt in its purist form has soo many disparate players that whatever you are describing...and then u go on and say that an otc mkt goes against the tenets of a free mkt? how? why shud an investor pay 4%comission to a broker who isnt adding value to his/her trading process? waht do brokers do to earn this comission? what extra liquidity has any kenyan bond broker added to this market??? dude get serious...
Wa_ithaka
#49 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 8:46:26 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Try clicking on the here bit of the post.
If charges are the issue, why not deal with that?
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
kizee
#50 Posted : Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:11:34 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 537
the issue here was one of transparency and NOT ethics! please note that the current fixd income market here in kenya, which is EXCHANGE TRADED has the same issue! SO MUCH FOR YOUR ARGUMENTS......chalk and cheese my man...the propsed OTC mkt will be traded on a platform which will create transparency...bids offers will be clearly displayed...trades will also be reported on various platforms such as reuters and bloomberg...the nse and brokers will also have acess to this info if theyr willing to invest in these info platforms...
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