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Pope believes in Evolution and the Big Bang
masukuma
#41 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 12:56:41 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
ballistic wrote:
tycho wrote:
Tokyo wrote:
tycho wrote:
Tokyo wrote:
Interesting ....
Nobody is absolutely certain regarding origin of life.


The origin of life can't be answered with certainty. In fact humanity only tries to answer a more fundamental question. The question of meaning and experience.


Totally agree with you @Tycho. nobody , I repeat nobody including @AlphaDoti or Pope, Theists or Atheists knows anything about AfterLife.


There's no 'afterlife' only life and death. And death is the alienation of Man from life as a consequence of self consciousness and the knowledge of good and evil. Death isn't about the morgue, it's about the heart of Man being at conflict with itself. Life is perfect harmony.

@Jaggernaut, faith isn't taught anywhere. Faith is the experience of nature and the assimilation of this experience into our cognitive facilities.

@ballistic, the essence of Genesis doesn't change a bit, but the form of the narrative may change to suit the metaphor of our time.


Can you use simpler language? what do you mean in the second part of your sentence?


he means that Genesis may be interpreted differently based on the filters we have acquired during out time. the Narrative of Genesis has been changing over time. Early Christians believed that God created man in his physical form. That we look like God i.e. God has ears, eyes, hands e.t.c. The it has slowly been interpreted to mean 'spiritual likeness' not 'physical likeness' e.t.c. So we will need to create a narrative off Genesis that is not conflicting so much with what we 'know' now. in the same way we (we humans not we africans since it was well accepted before we got the 'gospel') accepted the world was spherical not flat.... we will need to accept these things. They are with us monday to saturday and sunday in the afternoon. We will need to one day accept that
1) Genesis is not a ACCURATE HISTORIC representation
2) Genesis is not a LITERAL representation
We go to museums and see fossils with a narrative next to them. We get hominid discoveries every week... we need to come to terms with this...
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Muriel
#42 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 12:59:06 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:

Alright.

Though you shy from stating outright what you have accepted and come to terms with. I could not help but notice key words you use which I will dwell on.

Accepting. Coming to terms. I could also say perhaps recognizing, believing?

All this is not really about fact or science but about beliefs, is it not?

So which belief is most approximate to the truth you hold? Which belief do you have? What position have you accepted, come to terms with?

this is not about me....

maybe one day it will have a coherent worldview that I am at peace with until then
mimi niko hapa!
But you will not find me on either camps that shout at each other asking each other to 'prove' who started the big bang or who created God e.t.c. it's meaningless - it does not really matter does it? whatever happened ... happened and we are here. we are here and some of us are in the words of chris rice's song "big enough"... trying to figure out what this world is all about and if there is an eternity
Quote:
Three-and-a-half pounds of brain try to figure out. What this world is all about... And is there an eternity, is there an eternity?

I figure indeed God is "big enough". I guess many of us are here - right? during the day I sedate myself with Asprin.


If it was never about you why should it be about others or even something or a book?

masukuma
#43 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 1:07:50 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:

Alright.

Though you shy from stating outright what you have accepted and come to terms with. I could not help but notice key words you use which I will dwell on.

Accepting. Coming to terms. I could also say perhaps recognizing, believing?

All this is not really about fact or science but about beliefs, is it not?

So which belief is most approximate to the truth you hold? Which belief do you have? What position have you accepted, come to terms with?

this is not about me....

maybe one day it will have a coherent worldview that I am at peace with until then
mimi niko hapa!
But you will not find me on either camps that shout at each other asking each other to 'prove' who started the big bang or who created God e.t.c. it's meaningless - it does not really matter does it? whatever happened ... happened and we are here. we are here and some of us are in the words of chris rice's song "big enough"... trying to figure out what this world is all about and if there is an eternity
Quote:
Three-and-a-half pounds of brain try to figure out. What this world is all about... And is there an eternity, is there an eternity?

I figure indeed God is "big enough". I guess many of us are here - right? during the day I sedate myself with Asprin.


If it was never about you why should it be about others or even something or a book?


exactly... it's not about me... nor is it about others or even about a book or something.... we are all insignificant and our realisation of our insignificance does not go down well with us. but sadly that does not change our significance levels - does it? regardless of your worldview...
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Muriel
#44 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 1:17:50 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:

Alright.

Though you shy from stating outright what you have accepted and come to terms with. I could not help but notice key words you use which I will dwell on.

Accepting. Coming to terms. I could also say perhaps recognizing, believing?

All this is not really about fact or science but about beliefs, is it not?

So which belief is most approximate to the truth you hold? Which belief do you have? What position have you accepted, come to terms with?

this is not about me....

maybe one day it will have a coherent worldview that I am at peace with until then
mimi niko hapa!
But you will not find me on either camps that shout at each other asking each other to 'prove' who started the big bang or who created God e.t.c. it's meaningless - it does not really matter does it? whatever happened ... happened and we are here. we are here and some of us are in the words of chris rice's song "big enough"... trying to figure out what this world is all about and if there is an eternity
Quote:
Three-and-a-half pounds of brain try to figure out. What this world is all about... And is there an eternity, is there an eternity?

I figure indeed God is "big enough". I guess many of us are here - right? during the day I sedate myself with Asprin.


If it was never about you why should it be about others or even something or a book?


exactly... it's not about me... nor is it about others or even about a book or something.... we are all insignificant and our realisation of our insignificance does not go down well with us. but sadly that does not change our significance levels - does it? regardless of your worldview...


Then on that score your insistence is consistent with Genesis account that has the effect of deflating the self-significance of humans by the insistence that humans were 'made'.

The literal flavour of it. Why are you contradicting yourself as you go along? To me that is what I see from your posts.
masukuma
#45 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 1:56:21 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:

Then on that score your insistence is consistent with Genesis account that has the effect of deflating the self-significance of humans by the insistence that humans were 'made'.

The literal flavour of it. Why are you contradicting yourself as you go along? To me that is what I see from your posts.

unfortunately unlike you - I don't have it all figured out! but unlike many I don't see myself as having burden of proof to defend a certain worldview....I have studied history and I don't really see my worldview as being the one thing that makes this place go round. What I believe in really does not change what happened. And you are right, my current worldview is not coherent and is full of contradictions - which is ok by me.... I am just a guy who is interested in living life one day at a time. A guy who grapples with his significance Monday to Saturday and occasional Sunday afternoons!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Muriel
#46 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:27:18 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
masukuma wrote:
Muriel wrote:

Then on that score your insistence is consistent with Genesis account that has the effect of deflating the self-significance of humans by the insistence that humans were 'made'.

The literal flavour of it. Why are you contradicting yourself as you go along? To me that is what I see from your posts.

unfortunately unlike you - I don't have it all figured out! but unlike many I don't see myself as having burden of proof to defend a certain worldview....I have studied history and I don't really see my worldview as being the one thing that makes this place go round. What I believe in really does not change what happened. And you are right, my current worldview is not coherent and is full of contradictions - which is ok by me.... I am just a guy who is interested in living life one day at a time. A guy who grapples with his significance Monday to Saturday and occasional Sunday afternoons!


We try and make an effort to understand even as we all live one day at a time. That entails having pet theories including our own examined. Science.

Having studied history (impartially presumably), what other historical worldviews are out there? You do not have to defend anything for that matter in as much as 'attack' is the best 'defense'.

If you feel no compelling burden of proof to talk about your ground are you honest to talk about another's ground?
masukuma
#47 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:47:03 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:

If you feel no compelling burden of proof to talk about your ground are you honest to talk about another's ground?

Everyone faces themselves in the morning after a great loss and asks themselves questions. I am not immune to that, I feel no burden of proof to defend my worldview.... it's not defendable - I don't have it all figured out. However I have some pieces figured out (Refer to the Known Knowns, Know Unknowns and Unknown Knowns thread for more on this). If something is in the Known Knowns section of the body of knowledge - we can to a fair degree dispute any conflicting body of knowledge that comes without evidence. But hey... I don't have all the answers... Living my life one day at a time and taking a front row seat to see how this declaration by the pope affects the body of Christ.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#48 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:02:12 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@wendz and @ballistic, you're both asking the same questions. You're asking how, or what I mean that God can be re-understood, and how the form of Scripture can change over time.

Firstly, 'God' relates with Man in a context not immediately perceptible to Man. You're born, and as you go for Sunday school or madrassa you begin to form your conception about God, and this conception changes for as long as your stock of knowledge is built. For example one day while experiencing a blackout at home my neighbor's daughter asked me, 'will God bring back the lights?' I found it not only amusing, but that no other answer would do except a 'yes'.

In the next few years she'll laugh at my answer if she remembers our conversation.

Right now I can't pray to God to get a matatu or a plot in Kayole.

The same way for humanity in general. It's dreamed that in the eighth millennium AD humans will be able to tame the sun. Maybe I've gone too far. It's expected that by the middle of this century robots will be more intelligent than Man and even difficult to distinguish from Man. Who will God be then? Who will Man be? What will we pray for?

Yet the fundamental issues will remain. The questions Scripture have tried to answer will still remain. There'll always be points of helplessness, ignorance, aspirations. How will these questions be expressed? That's something only specific to the context.
Swenani
#49 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:26:14 PM
Rank: User

Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
I can conclude that the expansion or acquisition of knowledge by human beings has worked against the human beings in understanding the genesis of humanity and the universe in general.From my Ignorant (finance smile smile ) point of view,acquisition of knowledge should lead to less uncertainties(unknowns) and not the other way round;Currently there are more uncertainties with regards to the genesis of the universe and the after death than it was a few years back.

If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
tycho
#50 Posted : Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:38:03 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Swenani wrote:
I can conclude that the expansion or acquisition of knowledge by human beings has worked against the human beings in understanding the genesis of humanity and the universe in general.From my Ignorant (finance smile smile ) point of view,acquisition of knowledge should lead to less uncertainties(unknowns) and not the other way round;Currently there are more uncertainties with regards to the genesis of the universe and the after death than it was a few years back.



You're mistaken @swenani. The aim of knowledge isn't to reduce uncertainty. And humans aren't less certain than in the past.

Knowledge must be uncertain given the nature of acquisition and growth. It's like a sea, and we're always in the middle of it. The shore isn't as important now than the present experience. One needs the peace of the moment, and only knowledge can supply that.

And again, knowledge isn't what your religious leader says, or what your professor taught you, knowledge is what you see as true, as good, and moral.

The task of knowledge is the task of experience, of being. Are you less certain than in the past? Then you haven't been working your experience.
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