Wendz wrote:AlphDoti wrote:muganda wrote:Perhaps I need to rephrase... @tycho @Alphdoti today is Sun 05-May-2013.
Please confirm if YOU, would be willing to subjugate yourself to any law or religious dictum that handles infidelity (only for the woman mind you) in this way...
- shoot your daughter 3 times at the back of the head
- obligate sons to stone their mother to death to prove their manhood...
First, understand that you're asking a question which is so obviuos.
You should not forget that Muslims are committed people, if there is law to be followed, then they follow.
<
Question> shoot your daughter 3 times at the back of the head?
<
Answer>
Yes, if she is guilty of the most serious of crimes, punishable by death.<
Question> obligate sons to stone their mother to death to prove their manhood?
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Answer>
No. It's very clear in Quran 5:32, you cannot kill innocent human being.So what should we doabout these people who do serious of crimes like adultery, murder, sodomy, robery with violence, rape etc?
The scholars of Islam say they should be punished,
they are criminals and the aim is to find them and kill them as criminals.
[
b]If you're Christian
then I tell you even your God (my God too, but I emphasize the Bible here) Says that such crimes are punishable. I can give you evidence in your own Bible.[/b]
EvidenceThat's why in Islamic countries:
-
crime rate is the lowest- poverty is the lowest (obligatory charity)
It has nothing to do with the blessings of being in rich oil countries?-
cases of HIV is lowest- etc
This is true... it also says you do not spare the ROD. However, i haven't seen anywhere in the bible where it says "punish them by death" of whichever form. i do not believe anyone should punish anybody to death for whatever reason. Islam included. If they can however say that they can give life, then, I'd agree, they have a right to take it.
The question I always ask myself is, if the Islam laws were not that "punitive", would people behave the way they do? Are criminal activities lower because people believe in the religion and do good or is it because of the fear of the consequences of that law? Left on their own, without the threat of death - and death in the most devastating way, would the rate be as low? I don't know.
However, i must say, when some people from areas where the countries are generally governed by Islamic law visit areas without such laws (or they are not strictly applied), they let themselves loose and they do the same things that "non-believers"(for lack of a better word) do.
Let me ask, how come in Kenya, we do have Muslims, but we have not heard of these acts? Is it that Muslims in Kenya are way "better believers" than their Iraq counterparts?
You need to know that Islam prescribes punishment for adultery and fornication.
For adultery stoning to death and for fornication, 100 lashes.
How are these laws applied?Please note that these laws are applied and done publicly. People should be present to observe it.
It is not for entertainment in public, but for them to see Allah's law and application.
The sight of it helps to enforce in the minds of the people that God's laws are being applied and we should avoid these kinds of crimes.
How are they applied in other societies?the punishment has shifted to being applied in secrecy, in prisons, nobody sees it.
It has only become a statistics in the paper. You hear so and so was executed for a certain crime.
Then it does not have the deterrent effects that it would if it had been done in public.
Fornication and adulteryYou know the attitude in West.
They say the Islamic method is outdated, in these times.
This is because there has a been a change in moral standards in the Western countries.
For example a president himself of the country, the presidents of these countries are known for adultery and fornication.
The society accepts it, by electing them knowingly.
I mean go back 30 years agothis was not acceptable that a president or prime minister could be elected knowing that he does this kind of thing.
However, in our time, with the change in the morality of the society, this has become acceptable.
So naturally, in a soceity where adultery and fornication have become norms, nobody questions it, it is called barbaric.
Fornication and adultery is no longer a crimeBecause they say it is consenting adults.
This is the principle, which governs the "rightness" and "wrongness" of sexual relations.
As long as they are consenting adults, then the society has no business to punish them.
This is according to Western culture, where the society is secular, where religion has no place in the applicaiton of law.
So with this kind of an attitudewhere we are evolving things, then they say there is no need to punish enyone.
Of course there are peole in the West who are sadden, sicked, by this attitude.
This is the system as potrayed by the media, supported by international political systems.
Whether it is through the UN or wherever, these attitudes are being promoted, and they are penetrating in the Muslim worlds.
You see now there are resistance to the aplication of law for this kind of crimes.
Islam is careful when applying this lawSomebody cannot just accuse another of fornication and law is just applied.
Islamic law requires that there be four witnesses for the applicaiton of this law.
The lashing for fornication of peole who are not married or stoning to death of people who are married cannot be applied unless there are four witnesses.
Reliable witnesses. Not just anybody. But people who are known to be just and righteous.
And without those four witnesses, the law cannot be applied.
That's why the number of cases of people stoned to death or lashed are very few!
Over the last 1400 years to today, they are very, very few. They can be counted.
Now, what is the evidence?- confession or
- a woman gives birth to a baby, she becomes pregnant while her husband is away.
Where there is clear evidencethe law will apply. But accussions is not enough.
Infact, in Islamic law, if you accuse somebody and you don't have witnesses, then you are lashed 80.
So this makes it very serious, to slander or to say somebody committed adultery, is very serious accussation.
In the case of husband and wifethey catch each other in the act, then they can raise their case in the court and their marriage can be dissolved.
But they law cannot be applied, of punishment to either party, unless the evidence are there e.g. pregnancy
So basicaly, the law is a deterrent.Something to discourage people and a result of that you find that the rate of this crime is quite low in Muslim countries in general.
Look at our societies todaypublic display of affection has become a norm in the Western countries.
People hold hands, they kiss and hug each other publicly.
You go to a park and you cannot believe what you can see happening there.
You go there with your family and it gets very embarassing.
Because this has become a norm, people do not feel anything wrong with it.
Shaking the hands of female guestssometimes a man comes with his wife hte host is kissing the wife of somebody else.
And it is considered as normal, social ettiquette.
Whereas from Islamic puspective, this is discouraged. Strongly discouraged.
Why? Because these kinds of interactions can lead to corruption, especially in where people get together, using alcohol, it is very easy for the limits to be broken.
For examplepeople travelling on plane, they didn't know each other, they happened to sit together, talked and took a few drinks.
The next thing was that they were covering themselves in blanket and people were saying stop this, even the stewards stopped them.
Of course, they got arrested when they arrived... but these kinds of things should not happen in public
This happens because of the relaxation in moral values.People in the movies are promoting this.
Fornicaiton, adultery is adored in the norm for movie goers today.
So people are constantly bombarded by this.
The movies are potraying people from all walks of life, common people, .
Everybody seesm to be in love with everybody in one way or another in fornication and adultery.
This is what the movies are telling us.
So naturally people will be encouraged in their personal life to be in love with such practices.
Islam cares for family and its structuresSecurity of the society is very important in the case of theft and murder.
For example armed robber who is involved in robbery will be executed.
Similarly for the sake of familythe family is the core of the society.
Once that breaks down, you are finished.
So in order to protect that family, the laws are very strong.
Islam encourages- marriage early,
- it permits polygamy etc.
- All these things like divorce is not difficult, so where people have problems, these things can be worked out and there are options for them.
So beyond that now, wny kind of illicit sex is treated as a grave crime.
And the punishment is very, very grave.
What does the Bible say?And I should mention, the punishment for adultery is not something Islam introduced.
This is foudn in Mosaic law. It's been around, not something newly introduced.
Islam just revived it, brought it back to the fore-front, and established it, made it alive even until today.
Whereas in other societies it has been lost, the idea is not considered applicable.