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Why do LADIES dress this way to CHURCH???
quicksand
#41 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:33:22 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
I'll stick to my initial statement coz its true.

I'll change it when one brings empirical evidence on the status of a woman's or man's dressing increasing or decreasing their morality quotient.

I don't want to judge your parents, but I don't think that your parents or my parents ideas of decency or lack of it can be used to judge other person's standards of decency and morality.

If I was to base the morality of any woman in 2013 based on what my grand father considered decent, then I would expect that my daughters are all circumcised and wear very large rings in their ears to make them decent and beautiful.

I've always find this all the time. Tell me if you haven't seen it.

A woman who is dressed "decently" passes a man who just won't take his eyes of her. The pass each other and the man continues staring. When you make contact with this fellow, he notices you've seen him gawking and he then proceeds to shake his head and gives a clicking noise with his tongue. All the while he hasn't stopped looking at the woman.

The problem is not the woman. The problem is you the man who can be easily affected by the dressing or appearance of a woman. Shauri yako!


It is just a statement and not necessarily true, it is an assumption you are making. You are also not bringing any empirical evidence to support your claim, asking for some is farcical. It is not what my parents believe to be decent or not, it is not their outlook or judgement that is in question, it is mine. It is what I believe to be decent, believe strongly enough to appear before them and say 'Hello folks, me and this woman are acquaintances'. Have you ever been to a ruracio? Ever seen a prospective bride in a mini-skirt? It is a question of embarrassment, though morality is deeper down there.
Some time ago (I read this in a magazine), Mobutu banned a popular musician's very lewd songs from radio broadcasts. The musician protested hotly, Mobutu countered by asking the musician to sing them in the close presence of his mother. He quickly relented.
This thing of wearing rings and being circumcised is not what we are discussing; You are obfuscating issues cause you are running thin on ideas. Like you said, men also leer at decently dressed women. That is entirely men's fault. But just because some men leer doesn't mean that some women don't dress indecently.
Decorum is a real thing. It is out in force in places of work, bolted down by formal employment policies,..esp banks. And they are pretty specific too, they specify to wear dull colours, matching this or that, fabrics reaching a certain height etc etc. People who wrote these things are not dumb and they are necessary, please stop pretending otherwise. Outside, society will not explicitly lay down rules and say what is decent and what is not, but it is wired in our genetics somehow. Do you go to church in your beach shorts?
If you found a man drowning in a river and didn't extend a hand, you are not breaking any law, but then you are guilty of callousness and inhumanity. In a similar sense, if you don't have a sense of what is generally decent when it comes to dress, you are lost.

alma
#42 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:55:17 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
on this topic quicksand, we shall never agree.

My view is that people who dwell on what others look like are the same ones who fail to see the goodness around what is around us.

Just saw another fellow complaining on TV that women should not wear open toed shoes in the office. Exactly how does that increase or decrease the company profit and loss account?

Since I'm not a member of the morality police, I tend to leave how one dresses to their own devices. Of course I may be biased about someone based on my upbringing. But I found out that my upbringing has been dead wrong on quite a number of issues. So I tend to leave my biases behind and instead depend on one's actions to judge their character and perceived morality. Not their short or long skirt.

A lady who wears a long skirt and covers her hair does not equate to a numb and dumb virgin. Pull out that veil and you will find a porn star in the making.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
AlphDoti
#43 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:05:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@quicksand Applause Applause
AlphDoti
#44 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:10:02 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
alma wrote:
...<text omitted> ...A lady who wears a long skirt and covers her hair does not equate to a numb and dumb virgin. Pull out that veil and you will find a porn star in the making.

Do you know the meaning of porn?
Is the one who sells s*x or her body in form of videos or public display same as the one who displays her body only her husband?
quicksand
#45 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:15:52 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
@alma, I do not advocate for policing of what people should wear. I am just pro- some boundaries. These, even loose ones, are good, especially when we have the good sense to enact them ourselves. To illustrate, albeit extremely, wearing a bikini to the regular office for example, should rightly make people (men + women) uncomfortable. In addition, this should not have to be spelt out.
Its not what you wear, but when and where you wear it. The bias I have grown up with says that a few places (and times) call for reasonable covering up. Like church.
alma
#46 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 6:27:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
that's what I mean @quicksand. you wouldn't wear beach shorts to church. I wouldn't wear beach shorts anywhere due to the state of my legs.

Your reasonableness is not mine. Your boundaries are not mine. What you think is important may mean absolutely nothing to someone else.

And yes, I have gone to church and seen people in shorts and sneakers and slippers. The world did not end.

I don't think you are a devil worshipper based on what you wear. Ni tabia zako. There was a time not long ago when a woman pastor was damnation. After all they shouldn't have shown their skin. Which skin are we talking about. The ones in their thighs, the one in their necks, their hands? Who is going to carry the measuring tape? You or Alphadoti?
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
AlphDoti
#47 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:08:38 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
alma wrote:
...<text deleted>...Your reasonableness is not mine. Your boundaries are not mine. What you think is important may mean absolutely nothing to someone else...

...Who is going to carry the measuring tape? You or Alphadoti?

I'll start by telling you an hadith, which says:
Quote:
"A parent can give a child no greater gift than beautiful manners."


You see in life
Someone must have "Haya", which in this discussion stands for modesty, self-respect, shame, honour, humility, shyness etc.

In nature it is that feeling of "bad" and "uneasy" that comes with embarrassment.
This is comes out when person fears of being exposed or show disapproved for some unworthy or indecent behaviour.

So in a society where people believe in something
And if for some reason that person is not able to keep up with commitment then they will feel extremely uncomfortable and ashamed about this.
The reason is that he will have broken some code of conduct (for those who are religious, displeased God by breaking a command).

Unfortunately
What you see is genuine believers practising the commandments and you see people claiming the commandments and practising something else.

If we don't have some form of "haya" in us then it's obvius we do not believe in anything.

I can go on and on to proof to you
That "shyness" isn't something we want our youngs girls to exhibit so that they can be save (I'm sure you want your daughter to dress modesty).
It is not about women alone, but also good men should have, because this is an indication that they fear committing something bad if they follow their natural instinct.

This "shyness" is inborn
Look at young kids about 8 or 9 of age.
They have feeling of shyness and humbleness naturally happening.
They feel they need to cover their bodies from their mothers or siblings.

But you know what?
Ignorant people would tell such children "what are you hidding, what don't we know?"
These are the thinking Western culture want to instill in people's minds Shame on you
So people who are affected by western culture say this to their children (pure, "untainted").

If as responsible parents
we take these instincts of feeling of shame and raise it responsibly, it will develop to a conscious responsible people who guide their lifes to doing "good" (you know what I mean, generally agreed conduct).

Some of you will frown at shyness and humbleness
Saying this is a weakness or lack of confidence.
But in real these are qualities of dignified, upright person, who's aware of their actions and their responsibilities in life.

Luckily in the house of Islam
Haya is responsible for making one to avoid something distasteful or offensive.
It keeps that person from neglect of the other person's due rights (Ok I know you will say which rights, but I'll simple say a society where there's no code of conduct, then there is no right)
tycho
#48 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:12:18 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
The problem here, I think, is that we'd rather hide our sexuality than reveal it. For it smacks of selfishness and evil. We are not that innocent.

On the other hand, feminism and secular culture has also worked against human sexuality.

Its dignity and spirituality has been denied by society in total, and the reaction has been more and more frantic attempts to secure it.

I doubt whether a lady who is conscious of the sanctity of her sexuality can go vaunting everywhere. A woman's sexual allure needs no advertisement, it's always visible, and arousing.

So when a woman, or a man takes pains to show sexuality, then the clergy should get the message that people are suffering sexually and are in need of healing.
wazuaguest
#49 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 7:47:00 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/9/2012
Posts: 576
The problem is not what women wear. It’s what men think." a tweet from @Sunny Biddra
Africa belongs to Africans.
rock
#50 Posted : Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:08:07 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/25/2009
Posts: 973
tycho wrote:
So when a woman, or a man takes pains to show sexuality, then the clergy should get the message that people are suffering sexually and are in need of healing.

Sexual healing?smile
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