@alma, hehe..its very sad to see that your training as a land valuer did not result into understanding land issues. Thats why you dont practice since its obvious you cant understand land matters.

Its saddening to hear a land valuer like you state that its not the govt of kenya but kevevapi as the land owner. FYI, kevevapi=govt of kenya.

Point out the untruths in my analysis. From your arguments, i doubt if you ever made it through ADD asa valuer. You must have been discontinued at some point since you seem not to grasp very simple explanations about how the kenyan land regime operates.

For the umpteenth time, i repeat, i am not here to advocate for the kevevapi guys. Mine is to analyse the situation as it is from my understanding.

Your explanation about land searches is simply laughable. As we speak, thousands of kenyans are at the various land boards presenting SEARCHES to enable the land boards authorize conveyancing. Why aren't the land boards asking these guys to come with all the land history file? Because a land search report still remains the only Valid way to ascertain ownership, not your complete history file copy nonsense.

@alma, in one of your threads, you said you studied land economics at UoN. Ofcourse form your arguments anyone can see you are not a practicing valuer.
Now that i have schooled you on how the land regime operates in Kenya, you can only reciprocate by giving well researched arguments not nonsensical regurgitation of the Ndungu report. Everyone , including Einstein can be challenged. As i keep saying, i could also be wrong and if a solid argument that is sensible and plausible comes along, i will go with it. As of now, wielding Ndungu report as if its the alpha and omega wont make it.

Most of upperhill was once parastatal land/railways. When this land moved from railways to current private individual owners, was it illegal?

the commissioner of lands decided to give person a,b and c land previously belonging to kenya railways/prison etc. Person a,b and c later resold the land to all these multinationals you see in upperhill. Explain to me the difference between upperhill and kevevapi, and dont quote me Ndungu report, i want from your own view.

@alma, hehe..dont loose your arguments this easily..develop some fighting spirit. Make google your friend if you have to.

Its not that i would also not like to beleive Ndungu, i would also ask him to substantiate and if his arguments convince me, then am game.

On the small matter of you having studied land economics, how far did you go with these studies? FYI this info i have about land is from day to day involvement with land issues in Kenya and around East Africa, not from university training. Architects are trained to deal with technical aspects of building, not land ownership. Land ownership training is a preserve of conveyancing lawyers.

@jaggernaut,

1, Mau forest is FOREST land hence being utilised for the common good in maintaining bio diversity so that you and me can breath fresh air and get rain.

2. I have no idea about KICC, its owners etc.

Am only using common sense and what i read in the media on these issues eg its common sense that Mau area is forest land and its common sense that forest land is important for ecological balance/rain/clean air.

Also, its commonsense that the kevevapi area was idle and unultilised in that it was not forest etc hence was put to better use.

Its also common sense that previous use of kevevapi land, to manufacture vaccines, does not have to be carried so near the cbd.

Its even more common sense that ministry of agric owns thousands of other idle lands around nairobi which it can use.

On KICC maybe you can point me to some useful links then i can get updated.

From what i read in the papers on KICC, i know Govt architects were involved in the design so there is a likelihood that govt funded the projects hence the ownership issue.

Dr Architect Mutiso , who was involved with kicc design, was by then the chief architect at ministry of public works.

i have realy answered/explained so many questions regarding this keveveapi that one would be forgiven to think i have a stake at the land.

My main aim is to encourage constructive debate and in the process, enable more kenyans understand land issues in kenya for a better more informed kenyan populace in matters real estate.

Its usually tiring to keep explaining basic land / real estate principles to people all the time .

@mkenyan,
Mau land is useful to all of us for rain,air etc.
Kevevapi land at the point of alienation was just idle. This makes the difference on the two.

Govt allocates land to private citizens eg 1,400 acre donholm land all the way from muthurwa to donholm or karen land thousands of acres aloocated to Karen blixen.

When this land becomes property of private citizens, and these citizens decide to subdivide the land further, city council comes in and says x% of the land is to be set aside for public utility eg schools, police station etc. Karen police station and karen dispensary land were once paet of Karen Blixen's private land.

Most of the schools in donholm along jogoo road were once porperty of donholm rpivate farm.

These % set aside are what is usually seen in the media as GRABBED land. This land has been set aside for a particular use eg land set aside for school to serve donholm. If @mkenyan grabs the land and builds flats, the people living in the area have no recourse other than demolishing the flats to build a school. If karen blixen gave out land for a hospital then @mkenyan comes to build flats, then the flats should be brought down as in the recent case below in karen.

http://nairobinews.natio...grabbing-land-in-karen/


On the intended use of kevevapi, am basing my arguments on what i see in the media. I cant know of what kevevapi wants to do with the land. I can only guess. kevevapi are licenced to deal with agric use so logically, i can only assume they will want to demolish the houses and continue with agric use. From this usage, unless CS agric divulges to us on what he intends to reuse the land for, i cant tell.

The owners of Diamond Park have a way out of this mess.

Negotiate with Agriculture Secretary to buy the land from Kevevapi. Then sue the developers for giving them false title. The developers will then be forced to sue whoever sold the land to them. That way the owners keep their land and don't have to pay for the undeveloped land values.

Attempting to go to court and pretend that their titles are legal will only mean that one night when Sonko is at the Hague making movies, those bulldozers will come.

There is a way out. Take it.

No one wants to see such beautiful houses go, but they are illegal structures. Its just that they are not as poor as the Kalenjin fellows in Mau Forest.

@vky, assuming its factual as you say that the allocation was illegal, is it then ok/fair for ministry of agric to demolish as opposed to other options such as compensation with other lands, occupation of the built up structures etc? Since we are both arguing from the info we see from the media and are not privy to detailed commissioner of lands transaction, my view is that other avenues of remedy whereby loss of capital and expenses is mitigated should have been put through.

From my point of view, other compensatory measures could have been carried out since ministry of agric has thousands of other lands around nairobi.

For a 3rd world country like ours to use bulldozers to crush much needed capital/resources looks unreasonable for me.

to demolish or not will only depend on the needs of kevevapi, if they show that they need the land for immediate use to put up a research facility or whatever then demolish it is but if they don't foresee use of the land in the short to long term then no need for wasting the already put up resources but the developers should buy the land a fresh from kevevapi and pursue the irregular vendors who sold them the land initially for compensation. everyone on this earth has a price!

if i were to act for kevevapi i would establish if there was an immediate need for the land if there are none then i would propose that the developers buy the land from kevevapi but at the rates when the land was first alienated from govt. then charge a premium for every year of illegal occupation but if kevevapi were to need the land then everything has to come down

just as we discussed, the kevevapi has agreed to sell the land to the buyers, hence a win win for all. Everyone goes home happy.
http://www.businessdaily...1/-/kwj2ey/-/index.html

This is what should have happened from the word go, an amicable arbitration process.