Ladders are found. It's in the design of the universe. They are not made by humans alone.

And neither is it a matter of masses, nor consensus. It's a matter of an individual being concerned for his mind, body and soul. It's a question of practical play. Like Judgment.

So, @Muriel, you're busying yourself trying to convince others, perhaps even yourself on whether you need a ladder or not. This looks to me like idling. Those who know and have power, do.

Talk about words, as Wittgenstein demonstrated, leaves humanity with nothing to say. But talk about action will always be about having the power to name.

Not even I can tell you to climb, or even seek the ladder. It doesn't even matter. Whether you pick it or not. Life is too strong and powerful to wait for humans and their quotes. 'It' just grinds.

I have been expecting that 'it is the cause of all our problems'. The fallout should be cataclysmic or else it is not worth the cause. We are having this conversation yet we are on opposite sides. Separate.

And like I told brother earlier in other discussions, lets not pretend about this though we can certainly be polite. And brotherly. For example all of us can still agree that ladders are not made by humans alone, true. It is also true and correct, as brother says, that it is not a matter of masses or consensus but a question of practical play. Oh! brother and I agree on so many points in so many places that I have often wondered and asked how come we are 'different'? Ah! That's why I call him brother.

Brother, you and I are so firmly settled in our respective stations. It will take an apocalyptic meltdown to make any of us reconsider. Won't that be awesome?

You call me brother, and I am indeed one. So let us use the same analogy here shall we.

You call it, my leg, my arm, my head - yet you never think of them as separate from you, although these appendages are different and serve different purposes. In fact when you say my body, who is that who owns your body?

You are an infinite being, not confined to the limits of the human body or even the 5 senses. You are multifaceted and multidimensional. You can change but you can never die.

I am just one face, a fragment, of the infinite being that is you. So is Tycho, Al Shabab, murders, saints etc, believe it or not.

Back to ladders: their true value I believe is symbolic, to assist us in 'climbing' awaking back to unity by overcoming the illusion of separateness.

Otherwise Tycho is right. In ultimate reality there are no ladders, no rungs, no place to climb. Just like there is no time, no space and therefore, ultimately no change.

Awakening

Indeed there is 'division' - they play different roles, have different names and as you point out, sometimes seem to have a mind of their own.

But the point is you would never think of them as separate entities from the whole 'you.'

The same analogy applies to the 'greater you.' The reality that surrounds you is an integral part of you, even though you have assigned different roles and names and qualities to different elements of it.

We get so deeply immersed in the game of 'human - being' that we tend to confuse an assumed illusion of separation for the ultimate real.

I guess this has been overtaken so no need for a response.