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Time to introduce short-selling@NSE
mwanafunzi
#31 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:14:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 113
yes I've been thinking about this for long.its the best way to go now that the index is still heading south,but what about delays in order excecutions...

hold tight to your chutes we are about to dive
novestor
#32 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:58:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/4/2008
Posts: 48
@Mr.Green,true,our NSE is very stone age and should be Neanderthal Stock Exchange.

One thing that really bothers me is this issue of clearing a buy/sell in a week. What the hell stops them from clearing it instantly. I understand the reverse logic used is that they want to keep the stock market from collapsing! Ati what?I believe the total reverse would happen as much more money would come into Neanderthal Stock Exchange

Then the 10% caps,ati they are saving the Neanderthal Stock Exchange from collapsing in a day! So let it collapse in bits of 10%!

I think these rules were created by some Neanderthals sitting under a mugumo tree.

Learn something new everyday
Learn Something New Every Day!
Scubidu
#33 Posted : Tuesday, October 13, 2009 7:43:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
I believe the liquidity situation will improve through more listings,NSE demutualisation,greater regional participation (merger of market exchange) and better research (& analysis). Taking into account the limitations of our economy (its size) and the fact that foreigners dominate trading of major counters then liquidity will always be an issue. I think key to taking a short position should be to put more emphasis on market research,as the only sure way of ensuring a legitimate trade (and not an abuse one). Given how poorly regulated our market is I wonder just how well short-selling will be regulated efficiently. There is no incentive for the real owners (company owners) to approve short selling. It is pegged on identifying impairments on their books and results in shareholder wealth being eroded. Why would listed Kenyan firms endorse short selling?

SCUBI
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
VituVingiSana
#34 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 1:56:00 AM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
Sounds familiar... lakini the CMA is slow on the uptake...

Greedy when others are fearful,Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase WB
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
selah
#35 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 6:26:00 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/13/2009
Posts: 1,950
Location: in kenya
I hear the use of the system has helped some of the bailed out banks in the US make a profits.

you can achive all things through Him(Jesus Christ)
'......to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.' Colossians 2:2-3
Mr Green
#36 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 11:00:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 10/3/2006
Posts: 19
Location: UK
@ scubidu,

our local market (Kenyans),has the capability to introduce enough liquidity to move the NSE,we dont need to realy rely on foreign investors,what has happened is because of what the local markets sees as fraud,manipulation,conning by the government,brokers through the recent IPO's,the market mood has been heavily dented,and dont underestimate that dent,nearly every Kenyan has lost alot of their money,savings,loan on this NSE in the last 2 years. The majority of the crowd are not ammused,and because we lack alternative options of how to trade coz of the stone age mechanisims we still use were in for gloomy months ahead


When written in Chinese,the word crisis is composed of two
characters. One represents danger and the other represents
opportunity.
In every game and con there is always a victim and there is always an opponent. It’s good to know when you are the former so you can become the latter.
drake
#37 Posted : Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:03:00 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/8/2009
Posts: 170
@ Mainat Good sir,I beg to differ

1 ...there is zero OC

+ When building a pricing or valuation model,it's always prudent to factor in cost of interest earned (mostly continuously compounded) to make sure that no cash lies idle. It's an aggressive stance.... the best trading strategies,always are. Consider that when the shares are sold short,cash flows from new buyer C to broker AA but in your example,Kizee has no access to the cash because it forms part of margin! You can be sure that AA will earn interest on this money (being reflected in Kizee's CDS account) or use it to supplement working capital. The opportunity cost here is that:

1. a return (I) will be earned on the proceeds from the short sale.
2. The return shall not flow to you

Assuming 7.2481 on the 91-Day and that you close out your position on November 27th. Interest 'lost' would be 6427.71/=
Remember,Opportunity Cost is defined as value of the best alternative foregone.

2 ....you can easily get them (shares) because there is liquidity in the market for the share.

If that were so then the short-squeeze would not exist in developed markets where they have market makers,large volumes,high liquidity and bid/asks that are tighter than my girlfriend. Alas,one billionaire threw himself under a train for this very reason (Re: the Porsche - VW debacle) In developed markets,most securities lenders are either pension or mutual funds or large banks and u must remember that they are under no obligation to do so (lend or sell). In fact,they are better served holding out and watching their NAV's climb courtesy the squeeze even if short lived.

3. .... the cashflow impact here is very positive for everybody concerned.

At T1,positivity of 'Cash Flow Impact': AA &gt; Mainat &gt; Kizee
I think the most positive thing is that Kizee gets to employ leverage

For the price to move to 12,It will have to drop by 10.78%. Assuming that additional margin required from Kizee covers a similar rise in price and that broker's charges are 1.9% for the transaction.

at T1
Net Cash Flow AA 685277.5
Cash flow Kizee (105277.5)
Cash flow Mainat 40000

Remember that any adverse changes to the share price will mean that Kizee has to top up his margin (variation margin). If he faces margin calls and cash flow problems at the same time then he may be forced to close out his position at a loss.


4...... Returns are risk-adjusted because we are assuming that in the same way you buy a share knowing it can go up or down in value,you will short-sell it knowing that it may go up.

This is simply not so. The most important risk to any investor is downside risk.

Theoretically,the risk return relationship is such that:

Position Upside risk Downside risk
Short Limited Unlimited
Long Unlimited Limited

Theoretically,the price of EQTY can rise to the stratosphere representing UNLIMITED downside risk for the short seller. It's this risk that should be 'quantified' and used to adjust returns.

1. Risk arises when you don't know what you're doing. 2. People diversify their portfolios to counter unsystematic risk. 3. People who diversify their portfolios don't know what they're doing.
Mainat
#38 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 7:53:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
Drake,thanks for the considered response. Now;


OC: with all due respesct,please read up on OC. I attach a helpful wikipedia piece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost. The starting pt of OC is you must have the asset. At T0,Kizee doesn't have 50,000 Equity shares @Ksh13.45. There is thus no OC to him when he borrows them. His only OC is that arising from the margin. Note that if any interrest is earned,this is more likely to go to original shareholder than Kizee or the broker.
Downside/upside. Quite simply,I think yopu misunderstand investment logic/strategy. You go long a share,because you see higher probability of upside than downside in terms of the shareprice's direction. Ergo,you go short a share because you see higher probability of a downside than upside in the direction of a share price. If Kizee is going short Equity when its @Ksh13.45,his concern will be more how much he can harvest.

Does short-selling work? A couple of examples...please google David Einhorn and Lehman Brothers. Suffice to say,this guy started short-selling Lehman Brothers in July 2007 bcos he didn't believe its numbers and made some super change. E.g.2: having recently been following a particular share,I noticed that since an impending corporate action,its share price oscilliates between 46 and 51. So I go long when its at 46.50 close off at 50.50 and go short at 50.50 closing off at 47. Works a treat...


www.mjengakenya.blogspot.com
Sehemu ndio nyumba
Scubidu
#39 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 10:52:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@ Mainat

So short selling operates as it should. But we have to assess the motivation for taking the position in the first place,or else you'll be at the tail end of the herd group [of investors]. So you noticed a share (say Barclays) that traded within a given range. Then decided to implement a strategy based on price trends and an impending corporate action,but you still don't know if those factors have any relationship. Some price adjustments may be natural (i.e.,where Barclays pays it's dividend & the price drop reflects the payment in the books),while others such as earnings projections,debt profile or a/c policies will be subjective to the analyst. Developed African markets do not engage in short selling,because more often than not the required due diligence is not done b4 adopting the strategy.

The Einhorn story is very interesting,but his fact-checking was also thorough. According to Wikipedia,'starting July 2007,Einhorn became a short seller in Lehman stock. He believed that Lehman was under-capitalized,and had massive exposures to CDOs that were not written down properly. He also claimed they used dubious accounting practices in their financial filings'...so he made some allegations backed with research he'd done...'In May 2008,Lehman CFO Callan had a private call with Einhorn and his analysts'...verification...'Ms. Callan is said to have fumbled some of her responses to questions on Lehman's asset valuations'...confirmation...'...price took a further knock'...consensus...'Callan was fired a few weeks later'...unfortunate scapegoat,but successful short position!

On an website that had an article related to Einhorm,http://nymag.com/news/businessfinance/47844/index1.html,the author wrote the following 'There have been,by all accounts,a lot of hedge funds shorting financial stocks. But the only prominent investor putting his name,and his face,to a singular position has been Einhorn...The notion of profiting from a company's misfortune,as vital as it might be to the efficient running of the market,is an anathema to people outside the industry,so much so that precious few investors do it publicly anymore. It's too easy to look like a scoundrel who's out to destory companies and put people out of work. Even Jim Chanos,the short seller who smoked out Enron,is reviled in some circles-because thousands of people lost their jobs and because he made money off it. But Einhorn is remarkably unfazed by the vitriol he stirs up. He sees no conflict between his public moralism and the fact that he stands to profit from it. He has a profound sense of duty,and an almost innocent belief that if you're right,nothing else matters.'

Lastly,again,I'll refer to the E-Book - Web of Debt,that says [as opposed to a normal trade] during a short sale a '...price decline is not a linear function of supply expansion. At some point,if supply continues to expand beyond demand,the 'bottom will fall out of the market,' and prices will plunge.'

I don't want to reinvent the wheel so I refer to books...another good book is 'A Colossal Failure of Common Sense: The Incredible Inside Story of the Collapse of Lehman Brothers' written by Larry McDonald. You can buy it in Nairobi book shops and it details the practice of short selling with regard to corporate bonds. btw Mainat,if you're interested in reading the book Web of Debt,just drop me an email at moneyedkenya@gmail.com. &lt;And I'm not related to (don't even know) the author,so I have nothing to gain from sharing this information with you...harmless disclaimer...&gt;


SCUBI
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Mainat
#40 Posted : Friday, October 16, 2009 11:21:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
Scubidu- DYOR is one of the few abbreviations that I think is meaningful or has any purpose. It stands for Do Your Own Research. Something we should all do whether our trade is cows,fiss,land,matoke,shares or even books.


www.mjengakenya.blogspot.com
Sehemu ndio nyumba
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