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Jubilee is KING!!
Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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@ mwekez@ji I think what the deal said is 100% "INFORMED" ! I think u don't understand the term "underwriting"
Google it perhaps?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/25/2009 Posts: 4,534 Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
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mwekez@ji wrote:the deal wrote:mwekez@ji wrote:the deal wrote:This a better article on JHL, it emphasises the fact that one invests in Jub because of the way management uses float generated from its loss making insurance business to diversify its investment revenue streams ala the Warren Buffet style Link http://www.contrarianinvestingk...nlock-shareholder-value @the deal, Jubilee, the largest insurer in EAST AFRICA achieved an impressive 14% increase in underwriting PROFITS to KES 540 million in 2011 from KES 476 million in 2010. It also made good use of the float to achieve PROFIT Before Tax of KES 2.1B  You certainly need to correct your numbers My friend Google underwriting profit...if you don't know what it is!! The only insurance company making an underwriting profit in Kenya is CIC. Mate, we are discussing from an informed point. Dig into Jubilees financials and show us the loss. The PROFT is all there in black and white My friend I can show you how Jub achieves those Profits despite reporting underwriting losses...but what's the point for that? Stick with your perspective Boss!
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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the deal wrote:mwekez@ji wrote:the deal wrote:mwekez@ji wrote:the deal wrote:This a better article on JHL, it emphasises the fact that one invests in Jub because of the way management uses float generated from its loss making insurance business to diversify its investment revenue streams ala the Warren Buffet style Link http://www.contrarianinvestingk...nlock-shareholder-value @the deal, Jubilee, the largest insurer in EAST AFRICA achieved an impressive 14% increase in underwriting PROFITS to KES 540 million in 2011 from KES 476 million in 2010. It also made good use of the float to achieve PROFIT Before Tax of KES 2.1B You certainly need to correct your numbers My friend Google underwriting profit...if you don't know what it is!! The only insurance company making an underwriting profit in Kenya is CIC. Mate, we are discussing from an informed point. Dig into Jubilees financials and show us the loss. The PROFT is all there in black and white My friend I can show you how Jub achieves those Profits despite reporting underwriting losses...but what's the point for that? Stick with your perspective Boss! @the deal, @Horton, the underwiting profits are in black and white in the annual reports. One does not even need to do any calculations for that. Just reading, how hard is that for you two! Turn to page 6 and read the executive statements!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/25/2009 Posts: 4,534 Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
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Horton wrote:@ mwekez@ji I think what the deal said is 100% "INFORMED" ! I think u don't understand the term "underwriting"
Google it perhaps? The guy does not get it  anyway since NSe is up +18% this year...that portfolio which was in the red in 2011 must be back in the black...a good buy for speculation purposes!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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Also to do with cost of float ie all comes into underwriting profits, this is what buffett had to say about it. Basically what I understand from all the annual letters I have read, is that, they try to keep the combined ratio to about 1 or underwriting losses to a basic minimum and they have done so quite well over the years and he also says that it's the cost of the float that matters. Jub 2011 combine ratio was 1.29 ie cost of their float was 29% isn't it cheaper just to get a bank loan at 18% perhaps?
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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Horton wrote:Also to do with cost of float ie all comes into underwriting profits, this is what buffett had to say about it. Basically what I understand from all the annual letters I have read, is that, they try to keep the combined ratio to about 1 or underwriting losses to a basic minimum and they have done so quite well over the years and he also says that it's the cost of the float that matters. Jub 2011 combine ratio was 1.29 ie cost of their float was 29% isn't it cheaper just to get a bank loan at 18% perhaps? Your combined ratio significantly differ from what the deal has given. What are you people smoking. Cant you two even read what is black and white in the annual reports
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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mwekez@ji wrote:Horton wrote:Also to do with cost of float ie all comes into underwriting profits, this is what buffett had to say about it. Basically what I understand from all the annual letters I have read, is that, they try to keep the combined ratio to about 1 or underwriting losses to a basic minimum and they have done so quite well over the years and he also says that it's the cost of the float that matters. Jub 2011 combine ratio was 1.29 ie cost of their float was 29% isn't it cheaper just to get a bank loan at 18% perhaps? Your combined ratio significantly differ from what the deal has given. What are you people smoking. Cant you two even read what is black and white in the annual reports @ mwekez@ji we are individuals and are apt to have different views isn't that why this is a forum and not a presentation? Perhaps whatever we smoke differs in quality and hence the difference in combined ratio?! Have figured out what we are talking about?
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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Horton wrote:mwekez@ji wrote:Horton wrote:Also to do with cost of float ie all comes into underwriting profits, this is what buffett had to say about it. Basically what I understand from all the annual letters I have read, is that, they try to keep the combined ratio to about 1 or underwriting losses to a basic minimum and they have done so quite well over the years and he also says that it's the cost of the float that matters. Jub 2011 combine ratio was 1.29 ie cost of their float was 29% isn't it cheaper just to get a bank loan at 18% perhaps? Your combined ratio significantly differ from what the deal has given. What are you people smoking. Cant you two even read what is black and white in the annual reports @ mwekez@ji we are individuals and are apt to have different views isn't that why this is a forum and not a presentation? Perhaps whatever we smoke differs in quality and hence the difference in combined ratio?! Have figured out what we are talking about? @horton, @the deal, numbers dont lie, whether you smoke the legal stuff or the illegal stuff, the correct numbers dont lie I will reiterate, Jubilee, the largest insurer in EAST AFRICA achieved an impressive 14% increase in UNDERWRING PROFITS to KES 540 million in 2011 from KES 476 million in 2010. It also made good use of the float to achieve PROFIT BEFORE TAX of KES 2.1B You certainly need to correct your numbers and begin smoking the good stuff
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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mwekez@ji wrote:Horton wrote:Ok company .....poor industry. Guess who comes out trumps??
Sorry guru,VVS et al but insurance industry in Kenya sucks. No where else on the world is insurance on a car worked out on its value vs the damage it can do. How else would u explain my Toyota e90s With no abs braking, banger and sometimes lent to my 18yr old reckless Cuzo borrowing it from time to time. Compare in the west where drivers under 24 pay so much more premiums, also the state of the car matters. But in Kenya not so its a flat fee depending on value of the car.
Does no one here care about combined ratios?! @Horton, You need to check Jubilees financials General insurance, which including insuring motor vehicles that you are referring to above, accounted for 78% of the net insurance premium revenue so it is the main insurance segment of Jubilee. It achieved a combined ratio of 88.6%, which is an outstanding performance. It contributed KES 1.3B to PBT
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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Mwekez@ji...The net motor premiums for 2011 were 2,121,829,000 and claims were 1,285,829. That gives Even if I overlook that you have not incorporated EXPENSES, a key ingredient to the formula for combined ratio, I still don't come up with 88.6%.... Where did u get this? Because its a big company with various functions, easiest way, in my opinion, is to do the combined ratio for the entire insurance arm because segregation can get tricky. please follow your own advice. Read the statements! Stop reading the message from the chairman alone and go down to the nitty-gritty.Where are you getting your figures from? Do you truly understand what a combined ratio is? Go to investopedia and learn something. http://www.investopedia....ratio.asp#axzz20IsARdSk
And while you are at it, read about geico, bufett's baby on http://articles.business...o-market-share-premiums specifically read the 3rd last paragraph which clearly states, premiums are set on risk levels
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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mwekez@ji wrote:Horton wrote:mwekez@ji wrote:Horton wrote:Also to do with cost of float ie all comes into underwriting profits, this is what buffett had to say about it. Basically what I understand from all the annual letters I have read, is that, they try to keep the combined ratio to about 1 or underwriting losses to a basic minimum and they have done so quite well over the years and he also says that it's the cost of the float that matters. Jub 2011 combine ratio was 1.29 ie cost of their float was 29% isn't it cheaper just to get a bank loan at 18% perhaps? Your combined ratio significantly differ from what the deal has given. What are you people smoking. Cant you two even read what is black and white in the annual reports @ mwekez@ji we are individuals and are apt to have different views isn't that why this is a forum and not a presentation? Perhaps whatever we smoke differs in quality and hence the difference in combined ratio?! Have figured out what we are talking about? @horton, @the deal, numbers dont lie, whether you smoke the legal stuff or the illegal stuff, the correct numbers dont lie I will reiterate, Jubilee, the largest insurer in EAST AFRICA achieved an impressive 14% increase in UNDERWRING PROFITS to KES 540 million in 2011 from KES 476 million in 2010. It also made good use of the float to achieve PROFIT BEFORE TAX of KES 2.1B You certainly need to correct your numbers and begin smoking the good stuff U sound like a mascot LOL.
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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Horton wrote:mwekez@ji wrote:Horton wrote:mwekez@ji wrote:Horton wrote:Also to do with cost of float ie all comes into underwriting profits, this is what buffett had to say about it. Basically what I understand from all the annual letters I have read, is that, they try to keep the combined ratio to about 1 or underwriting losses to a basic minimum and they have done so quite well over the years and he also says that it's the cost of the float that matters. Jub 2011 combine ratio was 1.29 ie cost of their float was 29% isn't it cheaper just to get a bank loan at 18% perhaps? Your combined ratio significantly differ from what the deal has given. What are you people smoking. Cant you two even read what is black and white in the annual reports @ mwekez@ji we are individuals and are apt to have different views isn't that why this is a forum and not a presentation? Perhaps whatever we smoke differs in quality and hence the difference in combined ratio?! Have figured out what we are talking about? @horton, @the deal, numbers dont lie, whether you smoke the legal stuff or the illegal stuff, the correct numbers dont lie I will reiterate, Jubilee, the largest insurer in EAST AFRICA achieved an impressive 14% increase in UNDERWRING PROFITS to KES 540 million in 2011 from KES 476 million in 2010. It also made good use of the float to achieve PROFIT BEFORE TAX of KES 2.1B You certainly need to correct your numbers and begin smoking the good stuff U sound like a mascot LOL. LOL
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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Horton wrote:Mwekez@ji...The net motor premiums for 2011 were 2,121,829,000 and claims were 1,285,829. That gives Even if I overlook that you have not incorporated EXPENSES, a key ingredient to the formula for combined ratio, I still don't come up with 88.6%.... Where did u get this? Because its a big company with various functions, easiest way, in my opinion, is to do the combined ratio for the entire insurance arm because segregation can get tricky. please follow your own advice. Read the statements! Stop reading the message from the chairman alone and go down to the nitty-gritty.Where are you getting your figures from? Do you truly understand what a combined ratio is? Go to investopedia and learn something. http://www.investopedia....ratio.asp#axzz20IsARdSk
And while you are at it, read about geico, bufett's baby on http://articles.business...o-market-share-premiums specifically read the 3rd last paragraph which clearly states, premiums are set on risk levels 88.6% is the combined ratio for General Insurance which is the main insurance business line of Jubilee(comprising 78% of the net insurance premium revenue). Ordinary, Group, Life, & Pensions business lines are dogs Notice Jubilee with UNDERWRITING PROFITS of KES 540 M in 2011, up from KES 476 M in 2010, CANNOT have a combined ratio of more than 100% .
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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Boss,U are quoting word by word from the chairmans report. Sasa unanibore!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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Understand financial statements, how to read and interpret them, understand basic insurance alafu tuonge.
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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@horton,
Who am I not to quote the Board of Directors, Management and auditors who have presented the annual reports to us. And who are you not to agree with them!!!
… anyway, since you portend to know more than the Jubilee team, give us your workings showing:
1.an UNDERWRITING LOSS contrary to the UNDERWRING PROFIT they have given us of KES 540 M.
2.a COMBINED RATIO of more than 100% while the company is making an UNDERWRITING PROFIT.
Otherwise, you and @the deal should just agree with the figures given by Jubilee team
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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M@mwekez@ji soo many things wrong with your statement. A lot of us here on wazua go thru the madhafu, not blindly agree(or disagree) with statements. The deal & I have already placed our arguments don't see why u want us to repeat.
PS I don't have to agree or disagree with any figures,
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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Horton wrote:Boss,U are quoting word by word from the chairmans report. Sasa unanibore!
@Horton are you aware that it is illegal for a director let alone a chairman to misrepresent information on the financial statements?? This carries up to 10 year jail sentence if convicted under the companies act! So if the chairman boasts that Jubilee made an underwriting profit of 540mn in 2011 with the stamp of PWC who are you and @the deal to say otherwise?? Are you aware that neither you or @the deal are actuaries?? Are you aware that your knowledge on insurance is centered around Google links and buffet quotes!! We know you learnt two new words aka "combined ratio".. But trust me you dont know nearly enough to dispute the auditors and actuaries at Jubilee.. Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/31/2011 Posts: 5,121
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@Horton, we do the maths and we never take anything blindly. In the case of Jubilee, we agree with the management.
Underwriting profit: 540M {7,341,996,000 - 6,114,019,000 - 687,977,000}
Overall combined ratio: 92.645% {(6,114,019,000 + 687,977,000)/ 7,341,996,000}
Over to you
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/20/2008 Posts: 503
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mwekez@ji wrote:@Horton, we do the maths and we never take anything blindly. In the case of Jubilee, we agree with the management.
Underwriting profit: 540M {7,341,996,000 - 6,114,019,000 - 687,977,000}
Overall combined ratio: 92.645% {(6,114,019,000 + 687,977,000)/ 7,341,996,000}
Over to you
. Can we agree that Jubilee made an underwriting profit and move on since as Mwekezaji has said, its all in black and white??? Generally speaking, I hope we all agree that the insurer makes an underwriting profit if the amount of premiums taken in is greater than the claims paid out. Note that considering premiums and benefits automatically leave Jubilee in underwriting profit territory. Personally, I prefer considering the direct insurance aspects together. Using this simplistic approach, the direct aspects of the insurance business as extracted from Jubilee's December 31st 2011 results (which are attached) would be as follows: Net Premiums 7,341,996,000 Add commissions earned +863,644,000 Less net benefits and claims -6,114,019,000 Less commissions payable -1,580,520,000 Underwriting Profit 511,101,000This is not as exact as the Kshs540M but close enough for me. Now you can adjust this profit for the proportion of opex directly related to insurance if you wish but my conclusions regarding the seriousness of jUBILEE'S insurance business would still be positive. http://www.rich.co.ke/me...ed%20Results%202011.pdf
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