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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 4,057 Location: Gwitu
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Much as I am not in a position to vouch for Cytonn,I find PaulKimani's infatuation with Cytonn matters a tad perplexing. Does the guy ever post on any other topic? Truth forever on the scaffold Wrong forever on the throne (James Russell Rowell)
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/6/2018 Posts: 175 Location: Kinshasa
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kaka2za wrote:Much as I am not in a position to vouch for Cytonn,I find PaulKimani's infatuation with Cytonn matters a tad perplexing. Does the guy ever post on any other topic? Yeah, from an objective standpoint, whether the posts have a basis or not, it makes one wonder whether this is not a personal vendetta? If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/19/2016 Posts: 204
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To all of you, noted.
The reason I created a new account was I got messages which were more than subtle threats when I viewed my thoughts on my normal account. Cytonn are thieves who stop at nothing and I wasn’t willing to risk my safety.
But, good luck to you all following Horton. For those investors who have messaged me privately, continue to do so. I’m out of this thread. Stay safe all.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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Balaa wrote:kaka2za wrote:Much as I am not in a position to vouch for Cytonn,I find PaulKimani's infatuation with Cytonn matters a tad perplexing. Does the guy ever post on any other topic? Yeah, from an objective standpoint, whether the posts have a basis or not, it makes one wonder whether this is not a personal vendetta? Let Kimani tell his story. As long as there is no abuse, personal attacks or unacceptable behaviour I don't see the problem. Any entity that is above board should expect intense scrutiny and criticism and be able to come out the other side unscathed, eventually. A man named Harry Markopolos warned everybody, the SEC included, for years, no one listened. Everyone made these uncomfortable noises and trotted out "business theories" explaining the unexplainable until Bernie Madoff's thing crashed. If you have unshakeable convictions about Cytonn, then chill, ignore the guy. Sleep easy and buy us a beer at the pub from your profits. For the paranoid like me, I say let the man keep poking. Peace. Stay safe
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/11/2009 Posts: 1,223
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I am for freedom of expression.... If you grew up under Kenyatta and Moi you will appreciate that. Let everybody speak their mind and ooze wisdom or ignorance or stupidity in equal measure.... Kwani Wazua ni ya kazi gani? Having said any financial institution has to be wary of sentiments that might create a run on it. Sentiments of Paul Kimani when broadcasted by influential personalities can create a run. In such times, it is prudent of Cytonn to maintain stability in the short term. A bank run (also known as a run on the bank) occurs when many clients withdraw their money from a bank, because they believe the bank may cease to function in the near future. In other words, it is when, in a fractional-reserve banking system (where banks normally only keep a small proportion of their assets as cash), numerous customers withdraw cash from deposit accounts with a financial institution at the same time because they believe that the financial institution is, or might become, insolvent; they keep the cash or transfer it into other assets, such as government bonds, precious metals or gemstones. When they transfer funds to another institution, it may be characterized as a capital flight. As a bank run progresses, it generates its own momentum: as more people withdraw cash, the likelihood of default increases, triggering further withdrawals. This can destabilize the bank to the point where it runs out of cash and thus faces sudden bankruptcy.[1] To combat a bank run, a bank may limit how much cash each customer may withdraw, suspend withdrawals altogether, or promptly acquire more cash from other banks or from the central bank, besides other measures. History will not remember you for your IQ. It will remember you for what you did. “Genius is 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration.” Thomas Edison
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/21/2018 Posts: 564 Location: Britain
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quicksand wrote:Balaa wrote:kaka2za wrote:Much as I am not in a position to vouch for Cytonn,I find PaulKimani's infatuation with Cytonn matters a tad perplexing. Does the guy ever post on any other topic? Yeah, from an objective standpoint, whether the posts have a basis or not, it makes one wonder whether this is not a personal vendetta? Let Kimani tell his story. As long as there is no abuse, personal attacks or unacceptable behaviour I don't see the problem. Any entity that is above board should expect intense scrutiny and criticism and be able to come out the other side unscathed, eventually. A man named Harry Markopolos warned everybody, the SEC included, for years, no one listened. Everyone made these uncomfortable noises and trotted out "business theories" explaining the unexplainable until Bernie Madoff's thing crashed. If you have unshakeable convictions about Cytonn, then chill, ignore the guy. Sleep easy and buy us a beer at the pub from your profits. For the paranoid like me, I say let the man keep poking. Peace. Stay safe I concur with your post. Nobody should run paulkimani out of town on the basis that he only comments on this particular thread. It's very easy to argue that he has a beef against Cytonn and he is now out to tarnish their otherwise good image. The only problem is that he appears to back most of his arguments with facts. He may indeed be having a bone or two to pick with Cytonn but his arguments are quite compelling. The tweets he shared the other day are quite easily an obvious give away for any prospective investor with Cytonn. For me those tweets are quite unsettling for any serious investor. It's very easy to wish to gag PK so that gullible investors can continue putting their money in Cytonn. After all misery loves company and there is "comfort" in numbers. IMO, PK should be allowed to give his side of the story and serve as a warning to investors since Wazua is about informing and educating others. Most landlords would tell you that guys who have previously been struggling to pay rent now have a perfect excuse not to pay. Hii Corona imekuja wakati mzuri. Everybody loves money but that promised 18% return, I dare say, does/did not appear sustainable in the long run, Corona or no Corona..
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/1/2017 Posts: 288
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quicksand wrote:Balaa wrote:kaka2za wrote:Much as I am not in a position to vouch for Cytonn,I find PaulKimani's infatuation with Cytonn matters a tad perplexing. Does the guy ever post on any other topic? Yeah, from an objective standpoint, whether the posts have a basis or not, it makes one wonder whether this is not a personal vendetta? Let Kimani tell his story. As long as there is no abuse, personal attacks or unacceptable behaviour I don't see the problem. Any entity that is above board should expect intense scrutiny and criticism and be able to come out the other side unscathed, eventually. A man named Harry Markopolos warned everybody, the SEC included, for years, no one listened. Everyone made these uncomfortable noises and trotted out "business theories" explaining the unexplainable until Bernie Madoff's thing crashed. If you have unshakeable convictions about Cytonn, then chill, ignore the guy. Sleep easy and buy us a beer at the pub from your profits. For the paranoid like me, I say let the man keep poking. Peace. Stay safe By the way Harry Markopolos blew the whistle yet again concerning fraud on the once US icon General Electric (GE) last year and stock sold off abit but crooked Wall Street titans came to the defense of GE and the stock rallied.GE is a ponzi scheme but naive investors still buying the stock Contrarian Investor and Trader.Advocate of free markets,limited government interference in the economy and sound money
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/1/2017 Posts: 288
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BGL wrote:I am for freedom of expression.... If you grew up under Kenyatta and Moi you will appreciate that. Let everybody speak their mind and ooze wisdom or ignorance or stupidity in equal measure.... Kwani Wazua ni ya kazi gani?
Having said any financial institution has to be wary of sentiments that might create a run on it. Sentiments of Paul Kimani when broadcasted by influential personalities can create a run. In such times, it is prudent of Cytonn to maintain stability in the short term.
A bank run (also known as a run on the bank) occurs when many clients withdraw their money from a bank, because they believe the bank may cease to function in the near future. In other words, it is when, in a fractional-reserve banking system (where banks normally only keep a small proportion of their assets as cash), numerous customers withdraw cash from deposit accounts with a financial institution at the same time because they believe that the financial institution is, or might become, insolvent; they keep the cash or transfer it into other assets, such as government bonds, precious metals or gemstones. When they transfer funds to another institution, it may be characterized as a capital flight. As a bank run progresses, it generates its own momentum: as more people withdraw cash, the likelihood of default increases, triggering further withdrawals. This can destabilize the bank to the point where it runs out of cash and thus faces sudden bankruptcy.[1] To combat a bank run, a bank may limit how much cash each customer may withdraw, suspend withdrawals altogether, or promptly acquire more cash from other banks or from the central bank, besides other measures. Thats why fractional-reserve banking system is a fraud and should be abolished.Banks should either be deposit taking or loan disbursers and not both but banks making too much money on this scheme until when many clients come demanding their money back then the ponzi is exposed and the bank collapses Contrarian Investor and Trader.Advocate of free markets,limited government interference in the economy and sound money
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/1/2017 Posts: 288
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Queen wrote:quicksand wrote:Balaa wrote:kaka2za wrote:Much as I am not in a position to vouch for Cytonn,I find PaulKimani's infatuation with Cytonn matters a tad perplexing. Does the guy ever post on any other topic? Yeah, from an objective standpoint, whether the posts have a basis or not, it makes one wonder whether this is not a personal vendetta? Let Kimani tell his story. As long as there is no abuse, personal attacks or unacceptable behaviour I don't see the problem. Any entity that is above board should expect intense scrutiny and criticism and be able to come out the other side unscathed, eventually. A man named Harry Markopolos warned everybody, the SEC included, for years, no one listened. Everyone made these uncomfortable noises and trotted out "business theories" explaining the unexplainable until Bernie Madoff's thing crashed. If you have unshakeable convictions about Cytonn, then chill, ignore the guy. Sleep easy and buy us a beer at the pub from your profits. For the paranoid like me, I say let the man keep poking. Peace. Stay safe I concur with your post. Nobody should run paulkimani out of town on the basis that he only comments on this particular thread. It's very easy to argue that he has a beef against Cytonn and he is now out to tarnish their otherwise good image. The only problem is that he appears to back most of his arguments with facts. He may indeed be having a bone or two to pick with Cytonn but his arguments are quite compelling. The tweets he shared the other day are quite easily an obvious give away for any prospective investor with Cytonn. For me those tweets are quite unsettling for any serious investor. It's very easy to wish to gag PK so that gullible investors can continue putting their money in Cytonn. After all misery loves company and there is "comfort" in numbers. IMO, PK should be allowed to give his side of the story and serve as a warning to investors since Wazua is about informing and educating others. Most landlords would tell you that guys who have previously been struggling to pay rent now have a perfect excuse not to pay. Hii Corona imekuja wakati mzuri. Everybody loves money but that promised 18% return, I dare say, does/did not appear sustainable in the long run, Corona or no Corona.. I have always been suspicious of Cytonn's high returns above competitors and when the deal looks too good to be true think twice Contrarian Investor and Trader.Advocate of free markets,limited government interference in the economy and sound money
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/26/2011 Posts: 759
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My biggest concern about Cytonn come from my experience in private equity and venture capital investing. 1. Fundraising: Typically, funds do not raise money from working class investors because it is easier to get money from institutions, and high networth clients. Given Cytonn performance for the last couple of year, I don't understand why they need money from regular people.
2. Cash payment to investors: Typically funds targets 6-10 years to return cash in lamp sum, this is the timeline for a liquidity event to occur. Without liquidity event, fund don't really have money to payback. Cytonn is very different because somehow it is able to pay investor back continuously.
3. Behaviour of Cytonn payments: Because Cytonn payments behave like derivative securities, the underlying assets must be generating reliable cash to service payments to investors. In order to do that, Cytonn must either have invested in AAA coupon paying securities or their real estate investment is generating sufficient rent income to cover the notes. If that's not the case, I would be worried.
4. Marketing: Funds do not do the kind of marketing you see at Cytonn because they don't have to.
5. Returns: Those returns are high/ very high!!!!
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/19/2016 Posts: 204
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In line with its investor protection mandate, the Capital Markets Authority (CMA) has cautioned investors against investing through unlicensed and unapproved entities. Capital Markets Authority Acting Chief Executive, Mr Wyckliffe Shamiah has advised investors to only invest through licensed and approved entities to enable them get protection offered by the Authority through the capital markets legal and regulatory framework. Mr. Shamiah observed; ‘’Investors who invest in unregulated and unapproved entities risk loss of their investments with no recourse afforded to them under the capital markets regulatory framework’’. Following numerous enquiries received by the Authority regarding the licensing status of the Cytonn Investment Group, Mr. Shamiah said, ‘’the only licensed entity is Cytonn Asset Management Limited” Mr. Shamiah advised investors to confirm the licensing status of any firms offering services in the capital markets industry with the Authority since it has been noted that some of unlicensed and unapproved entities are pitching investment opportunities as if they are licensed. He added; ‘’investors should undertake due diligence and check the license status of any entity marketing investment opportunities and purporting to be licensed by the Authority from the CMA website. The Authority will take appropriate enforcement action against any persons or entities illegally conducting business in the capital markets industry without a license. Members of the public who have been affected or become aware of such illegal entities are advised to report to the Authority or to the Capital Markets Fraud Investigation Unit. https://twitter.com/trad...1252269214293000194?s=21
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/19/2016 Posts: 204
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This is Cytonn response to CMA. So the fund they have blocked investors from is NOT regulated. This means the money will disappear into the hands of four thieves, namely Edwin Dande (alias Horton), Patricia Wanjama, Elizabeth Nkuku and shiv Arora
... and CMA can do nothing about is .. see their response here...
CMA has told investors “ Mr. Shamiah observed; ‘’Investors who invest in unregulated and unapproved entities risk loss of their investments with no recourse afforded to them under the capital markets regulatory framework’’
CYTONN RESPONSE BELOW - see on their website “ Cytonn Investments Management Plc also offers two privately placed funds that are governed by the investors in those private funds. The Cytonn High Yield Solutions LLP (CHYS) and Cytonn Real Estate Project Notes LLP (CPN) are investment solutions which are by law recognised as restricted private offers, CHYS & CPN are invested in real estate development projects undertaken by Cytonn Real Estate, including The Alma in Ruaka, The Ridge in Ridgeways, and Applewood in Karen.
Also - other than Amara Ridge which is still being advertised brutally on social media to be sold - none of their other developments have been completed / sold off plan or even begun.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,908
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paulkimani wrote:This is Cytonn response to CMA. So the fund they have blocked investors from is NOT regulated. This means the money will disappear into the hands of four thieves, namely Edwin Dande (alias Horton), Patricia Wanjama, Elizabeth Nkuku and shiv Arora
... and CMA can do nothing about is .. see their response here...
CMA has told investors “ Mr. Shamiah observed; ‘’Investors who invest in unregulated and unapproved entities risk loss of their investments with no recourse afforded to them under the capital markets regulatory framework’’
CYTONN RESPONSE BELOW - see on their website “ Cytonn Investments Management Plc also offers two privately placed funds that are governed by the investors in those private funds. The Cytonn High Yield Solutions LLP (CHYS) and Cytonn Real Estate Project Notes LLP (CPN) are investment solutions which are by law recognised as restricted private offers, CHYS & CPN are invested in real estate development projects undertaken by Cytonn Real Estate, including The Alma in Ruaka, The Ridge in Ridgeways, and Applewood in Karen.
Also - other than Amara Ridge which is still being advertised brutally on social media to be sold - none of their other developments have been completed / sold off plan or even begun. But all in all CMA is also just panganga mob with not action, where has their regulation ever helped minority shareholders who have billions. To me that is just another funny sideshow and empty talk. In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/26/2011 Posts: 759
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Even educated investor will struggle to remember which product is regulated and which product is not regulated.
-- Cytonn High Yield Solution (CHYS) -- Cytonn High Yield Fund (CHYF)
At best, Cytonn did a terrible job making sure their investors understand what they were investing in. At worst, Cytonn intentionally wanted to confuse their investors.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,908
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Rollout wrote:Even educated investor will struggle to remember which product is regulated and which product is not regulated.
-- Cytonn High Yield Solution (CHYS) -- Cytonn High Yield Fund (CHYF)
At best, Cytonn did a terrible job making sure their investors understand what they were investing in. At worst, Cytonn intentionally wanted to confuse their investors.
It was obviously this one, prey on the massess' innocence and limited investment knowledge/exposure. In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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Should Cytonn (whichever arm) be worried? Quote:Safaricom to launch unit trust, new savings service
MONDAY, MAY 4, 2020 6:41
Safaricom is testing a unit trust investment product on its M-Pesa platform and will commercially launch a new mobile savings service as it races for a larger piece of the financial services market.
Under the unit trust product, Safaricom will allow its subscribers to make small payments via M-Pesa that will be placed in a collective scheme for investments in assets like stocks, fixed bank deposit and government securities.
The subscribers will get a return either from dividends or capital growth of their units in the latest plan to grow the mobile money platform beyond sending and receiving cash, tapping loans as well as paying for goods to include insurance and wealth management.
The giant telco also said that it is awaiting regulatory nod to introduce the new savings product, dubbed Mali (Kiswahili for wealth), which will offer interest rates of 10 percent on deposits capped at Sh70,000 per saver based on a pilot test.
It started testing the savings product in December.
“We are in the final stages of piloting a unit trust investment product enabling customers to create and retain wealth,” said Michael Joseph, a director at Safaricom who served as acting CEO till April, in an online investor briefing last week. Source: https://www.businessdail...41824-10ue7cy/index.html
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/8/2018 Posts: 507 Location: Nairobi
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aemathenge wrote: Should Cytonn (whichever arm) be worried? Quote:Safaricom to launch unit trust, new savings service
MONDAY, MAY 4, 2020 6:41
Safaricom is testing a unit trust investment product on its M-Pesa platform and will commercially launch a new mobile savings service as it races for a larger piece of the financial services market.
Under the unit trust product, Safaricom will allow its subscribers to make small payments via M-Pesa that will be placed in a collective scheme for investments in assets like stocks, fixed bank deposit and government securities.
The subscribers will get a return either from dividends or capital growth of their units in the latest plan to grow the mobile money platform beyond sending and receiving cash, tapping loans as well as paying for goods to include insurance and wealth management.
The giant telco also said that it is awaiting regulatory nod to introduce the new savings product, dubbed Mali (Kiswahili for wealth), which will offer interest rates of 10 percent on deposits capped at Sh70,000 per saver based on a pilot test.
It started testing the savings product in December.
“We are in the final stages of piloting a unit trust investment product enabling customers to create and retain wealth,” said Michael Joseph, a director at Safaricom who served as acting CEO till April, in an online investor briefing last week. Source: https://www.businessdail...1824-10ue7cy/index.html Everyone should be worried. Britam, Nabo, Old Mutual, CiC, ICEA, CBA, Zimele, banks with their FDs. Everyone.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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rwitre wrote:aemathenge wrote: Should Cytonn (whichever arm) be worried? Quote:Safaricom to launch unit trust, new savings service
MONDAY, MAY 4, 2020 6:41
Safaricom is testing a unit trust investment product on its M-Pesa platform and will commercially launch a new mobile savings service as it races for a larger piece of the financial services market.
Under the unit trust product, Safaricom will allow its subscribers to make small payments via M-Pesa that will be placed in a collective scheme for investments in assets like stocks, fixed bank deposit and government securities.
The subscribers will get a return either from dividends or capital growth of their units in the latest plan to grow the mobile money platform beyond sending and receiving cash, tapping loans as well as paying for goods to include insurance and wealth management.
The giant telco also said that it is awaiting regulatory nod to introduce the new savings product, dubbed Mali (Kiswahili for wealth), which will offer interest rates of 10 percent on deposits capped at Sh70,000 per saver based on a pilot test.
It started testing the savings product in December.
“We are in the final stages of piloting a unit trust investment product enabling customers to create and retain wealth,” said Michael Joseph, a director at Safaricom who served as acting CEO till April, in an online investor briefing last week. Source: https://www.businessdail...1824-10ue7cy/index.html Everyone should be worried. Britam, Nabo, Old Mutual, CiC, ICEA, CBA, Zimele, banks with their FDs. Everyone. My concern for Cytonn rests on the fact that they have been targetting the mass market of late. Safaricom is targetting the mass market too with this product, to quote them "deposits capped at Sh70,000 per saver based on a pilot test."The other boys in the hood, Britam, Nabo, Old Mutual, CiC, ICEA, CBA, Zimele, banks with their FDs, target High Net Worth Individuals, Pensions, and corporate entities. Or am I wrong?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/8/2008 Posts: 947
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Angelica _ann wrote:Rollout wrote:Even educated investor will struggle to remember which product is regulated and which product is not regulated.
-- Cytonn High Yield Solution (CHYS) -- Cytonn High Yield Fund (CHYF)
At best, Cytonn did a terrible job making sure their investors understand what they were investing in. At worst, Cytonn intentionally wanted to confuse their investors.
It was obviously this one, prey on the massess' innocence and limited investment knowledge/exposure. I have invested in the cyton high yield solution and have gotten my money out with no problem or hustle. I then reinvested again and I am still expecting to get my money with no hustle. Will know by September if I get my money. But the experience clear. They informed me several times through the agent that this is an unregulated product and they try to sell you to the regulated product. You even sign that you know he risk. Wouldn't say they tried to hide anything. Do i know their investment strategy that will yield 18% in these ridiculous times. NO! Do I expect to get 18% interest ..... YES!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/13/2015 Posts: 1,592
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rwitre wrote:aemathenge wrote: Should Cytonn (whichever arm) be worried? Quote:Safaricom to launch unit trust, new savings service
MONDAY, MAY 4, 2020 6:41
Safaricom is testing a unit trust investment product on its M-Pesa platform and will commercially launch a new mobile savings service as it races for a larger piece of the financial services market.
Under the unit trust product, Safaricom will allow its subscribers to make small payments via M-Pesa that will be placed in a collective scheme for investments in assets like stocks, fixed bank deposit and government securities.
The subscribers will get a return either from dividends or capital growth of their units in the latest plan to grow the mobile money platform beyond sending and receiving cash, tapping loans as well as paying for goods to include insurance and wealth management.
The giant telco also said that it is awaiting regulatory nod to introduce the new savings product, dubbed Mali (Kiswahili for wealth), which will offer interest rates of 10 percent on deposits capped at Sh70,000 per saver based on a pilot test.
It started testing the savings product in December.
“We are in the final stages of piloting a unit trust investment product enabling customers to create and retain wealth,” said Michael Joseph, a director at Safaricom who served as acting CEO till April, in an online investor briefing last week. Source: https://www.businessdail...1824-10ue7cy/index.html Everyone should be worried. Britam, Nabo, Old Mutual, CiC, ICEA, CBA, Zimele, banks with their FDs. Everyone. Rarely does old money move from one fund manager to another. It's very conservative sticking to the old and tested ways. Safcom will have to build their own clientele base among the millennials. It takes time to build credibility in the investment world.
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