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Mtu Biz
#41 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:22:49 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
kelele.com wrote:
In school we were taught about sacred music..now..is all gospel music we see around sacred??



@ Kelele

Sacred music is general. Different people hold different objects places or people as sacred and have created music to honor these things.

Gospel music is specific. The Gospel is specifically the testimony of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Holy Scriptures, the Bible.

Sola Scriptura


Mtu Biz
#42 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:37:07 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
Sufficiently Philanga....thropic wrote:

Brothers n sisters i implore us not to judge, for a there is only one judge, He who gave us the law. In James 4:12, it says ".........but who are u to judge." Some of these gospel songs might not appeal to us but remember the Julianis, Daddy Owens were called from the "world", raised, saved so that they could go back to the society they have come from to tell them in the language the society best understands the good news of salvation. Remember Jesus used to heal the sick, cast demons n send them to to tell their neighbours what the Lord has done to them, Luke 8:98-39. Like the man from Gerasenes from whom the demons had gone begged to stay with Jesus but He sent him away saying.."Return to your home n dec;are how much God has done for you, the Julianis of today are simply going back home to proclain what has hapened to them, in a way that both the society n them can understand. Each one of us has a duty to "Return home n proclaim the good news". Once we appreciate n internalise this, we will not spend time judging as we will be so busy spreading the good news back home!


Every time a discussion on distinguishing between true and false Christianity or the true Gospel and the lie, there will definitely be a voice that will cry out judge not.

@sufficient

Almost all of the parables and teachings of Jesus are based on distinguishing between truth and error. E.g

The wheat and the tares
the wise and the foolish builders
the sheep and the goats
the seed that fell on different types of soil
the wise and foolish virgins
the wide and the narrow gate
the wheat and the chaff
children of the light and of the darkness
children of the day and of the night

and so on

Christians are called not to believe every spirit but to TEST the spirits to see if they be of the Lord.

To Judge is to make yourself the benchmark against which something is Good or Evil.

When the word of God is the benchmark against which you judge between good and evil it is God who is Judge here and not man.

When a 'gospel' message (in song or otherwise) deviates from scriptural integrity it is no longer a Gospel message.

Again, the Gospel is not about positive messages or cultural relevance.

It is the Testimony of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.



Sola Scriptura


Wendz
#43 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:48:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
poundfoolish wrote:
Abunuasi wewe yako sasa ni Uzee


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly crazy wazuans!
marex
#44 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:51:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/4/2007
Posts: 656
Haiya..this thread has grown this big..interesting to see most of u share my sentiments
The way I am
Ja-Kom
#45 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:17:43 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/28/2009
Posts: 290

To me, the word “Dara” does not fit into any Christian music lyrics, because frm where I grew up, it means to caress mostly a lady- not very pure I must say, and I find it offensive.
Three primary factors to consider when it comes to music:

1) The purpose of music. Is music designed solely for worship, or did God also intend music to be soothing and/or entertaining? The most famous musician in the Bible, King David, primarily used music for the purpose of worshipping God . Most of our own artists in Kenya (sio wote) use it to entertain, and to be “celebs”, which I find so appalling. However, when King Saul was tormented by evil spirits, he would call on David to play the harp in order to soothe him (1 Samuel 16:14-23). In the New Testament, the apostle Paul instructs Christians to encourage one another with music: “Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs” (Ephesians 5:19). So, while the primary purpose of Christain music does seem to be worship.

2) The style of music. Sadly, the issue of music styles can be very divisive among Christians. There are Christians who adamantly demand that no musical instruments be used. There are Christians who only desire to sing the “old faithful” hymns. There are Christians who want more upbeat and contemporary music. There are Christians who claim to worship best in a “rock concert” type of environment. Instead of recognizing these differences as personal preferences and cultural distinctions, some Christians declare their preferred style of music to be the only “biblical” one and declare all other forms of music to be unwholesome, ungodly, or even satanic.
The Bible nowhere condemns any particular style of music.There is no biblical basis to declare any particular style of music to be ungodly or outside of God’s will.

3) The content of the lyrics, and this is where mambo iko. Since neither the purpose of music nor the style of music determines whether a Christian should listen to any music, the content of the lyrics must be considered. While not specifically speaking of music, Philippians 4:8 is an excellent guide for musical lyrics: “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.” If we should be thinking about such things, surely those are the things we should invite into our minds through music and lyrics.

Whatever a person allows to occupy his mind will sooner or later determine his speech and his actions. This is the premise behind Philippians 4:8 and Colossians 3:2, 5: establishing wholesome thought patterns. Second Corinthians 10:5 says we should “take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ.” These Scriptures give a clear picture of the kind of music we should not listen to.

Obviously, the best kind of music is that which praises and glorifies God. Talented Christian musicians work in nearly every musical genre, ranging from classical to rock, rap, and reggae. There is nothing inherently wrong with any particular style of music. It is the lyrics that determine whether a song is “acceptable” for a Christian to listen to. If anything leads you to think about or get involved in something that does not glorify God, it should be avoided…….
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
kadonye
#46 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:28:03 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
@Mtu biz, I believe your beef with this kind of music is purely cultural as there is no reference to scripture in your replies.Let's not forget that we have Christians like Njonjo who believe good Christian songs are in the golden bells.Surely brethren, even as we judge let's be fair!I have never understood why someone who likes Joel Oesteens preachings would turn around and say Gait has no message-Their message is the same!Jesus warned us against such kind of useless rules in Mark 7 where he rapped the pharisees for making xtra effort to follo the rules of men while ignoring the rules of God.Granted, there are some musicians who are a disgrace.These I will compare with the sons of sceva in Acts!
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
Sufficiently Philanga....thropic
#47 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:39:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2010
Posts: 2,221
Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
@ Mtu Biz, powerful comments you've put across.
Why we will always have this kinds of threads is because christianity, unlike Muslim, is not a religion but a walk (Relationship) with God. As such, people will relate with God in a different way and then the question of what is Good, Acceptable, Perfect, Right will always arise!
One of my favorite scriptures in the biblia, which to me looks like a summary of the scriptures, some kind of Desiderata, is Romans 12, which talks about christian living, the fact that we are many members in one body(Christ) having different functions (Gifts), all to be used to the glory and honor of God.
But i agree with Mtu Biz that we should test the spirits!
@SufficientlyP
Mtu Biz
#48 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 4:51:47 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320
kadonye wrote:
@Mtu biz, I believe your beef with this kind of music is purely cultural as there is no reference to scripture in your replies.


The lack of direct reference to scripture is deliberate, i paraphrase but that does not mean my beef with this is purely cultural. Please re read my post.

kadonye wrote:

Let's not forget that we have Christians like Njonjo who believe good Christian songs are in the golden bells.


Kadonye, the discussion here has moved to what constitutes ' a good christian song'? golden bells or otherwise..

In a previous post on this thread i said to YOU that im not against style, i listen to the likes of Lecrae and Evangel (RAP), Rose Muhando and Others.

kadonye wrote:

Surely brethren, even as we judge let's be fair!I have never understood why someone who likes Joel Oesteens preachings would turn around and say Gait has no message-Their message is the same!


I agree, Joel Osteen and Jimmi Gait preach the same thing...and it is certainly NOT the Gospel

kadonye wrote:

Jesus warned us against such kind of useless rules in Mark 7 where he rapped the pharisees for making xtra effort to follo the rules of men while ignoring the rules of God.


I agree, but hear me, when weighing the content of a sermon or a song against the truth of the scriptures are you following the rules of men ?

kadonye wrote:


Granted, there are some musicians who are a disgrace.These I will compare with the sons of sceva in Acts!


These musicians who are a disgrace, by what standard are you labelling them thus. Is that standard the bible? if it is then the musicians you are defending also fall into that category.


Sola Scriptura


akowally
#49 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:06:01 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 1,126
Location: Nairobi
Those are great comments you have Ja-Kom, impressive. The only part that I can add to that is the intent or the motive. David at some point just plays the harp for King saul and the fact that he does it for the right intent and the evil departs from the King. You can get this in 1st Sam 16. Therefore if music is sang for an ungodly intent, it is not gospel and vice versa.

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akowally
#50 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:07:58 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 1,126
Location: Nairobi
I don't agree with some that what we are doing here is judging and the test and see scripture holds water. Many people (including Joel Osteen) don't mention the rebuke side of the bible while the bible has so many of them. It even commands us to expel an immoral brother from fellowship:

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

That is not judging

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

The bible talks about a time of false doctrine and conformity (which I believe using the word dara in "gospel" is)

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Nathan went and exposed David's sin and after this we see David's repentance in Psalm 51. Elisha helped Naaman deal with his pride, Paul rebukes Peter against prejudice:

Gal 3:11-13
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

The list goes on and on and on...Once again the bible allows us to discern if something is of the Lord and instead of throwing the "judgement" card, we need to talk about sound doctrine and most of all make sure we live it out.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
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Mtu Biz
#51 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:14:05 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/16/2007
Posts: 1,320

Thanks Akowally . I concur totally.
Sola Scriptura


YesuWangu
#52 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 5:27:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/11/2010
Posts: 1,588
yesterday on my way home i came across a saloon car with huge speakers mounted on top playing some gospel music of mary wambui. some young men were selling the vcd of the music.

i passed it but turned and went back and bought one vcd and watched it at home. the video does not grab your attention making you loose focus from the message mary wambui is trying to pass across. there is nothing unique, eye catching e.g. dancing style or make up or whatever worth remembering in those videos. only that my attention was wholly focused on the message. and i ended up reflecting on my relationship with God.

kadonye, i would recommend you buy one and watch and listen.
kadonye
#53 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 6:33:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
@Mtu biz, I think on this thread you are the most misunderstood person.Then I'm second.Reading through your posts,I've realised that the two of us are basically on the same side.One question though, is there not even 1 of 'these' songs that you've appreciated?What I have said all along is that we should judge(yes I said it,judge) on a song by song basis or artiste by artiste basis.I hate this old man mentality where everything done in 70s and 80s is good and all current music is evil.When i say some of our musicians are a disgrace,I'm simply concurring with some of u because,as I pointed out earlier there's one I've interacted with who from his own admission openly doesnt care about the gospel.Give these people a chance brethren,lest you end up being the stumbling block in their Christian walk.No blanket condemnation please
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
kadonye
#54 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 6:41:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
Let's also not forget that Christians confuse the pace of a song with its spiritual intensity.A slower song is mistaken to be deeper just coz of its pace!Did anyone notice people lifting their hands 'in worship' to Eric Wainaina's Kenya only during promulgation?
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
Shak
#55 Posted : Tuesday, October 05, 2010 8:54:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/22/2009
Posts: 2,449
Location: Africa
Still on the use of the word 'dara', what if the 'f' word was used in a 'gospel' song and declared to have a different 'godly' meaning? Wouldn't that be completely unacceptable?
kelele.com
#56 Posted : Tuesday, June 25, 2013 3:11:31 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/28/2010
Posts: 293
Location: Gigiri
Applause Applause Applause Applause
slammers wrote:
For you to be rich be a pastor
For u to be a celeb piga kelele and put the word God in it.

Sina Signature. NKT
maka
#57 Posted : Tuesday, June 25, 2013 3:27:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
kelele.com wrote:
Applause Applause Applause Applause
slammers wrote:
For you to be rich be a pastor
For u to be a celeb piga kelele and put the word God in it.


Kw hii story lets compare notes mbinguni...
possunt quia posse videntur
qnahs
#58 Posted : Tuesday, June 25, 2013 5:39:53 PM
Rank: Hello


Joined: 6/24/2013
Posts: 3
@mtu biz what is real christianity
Wakanyugi
#59 Posted : Tuesday, June 25, 2013 6:10:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
Interesting debate this one.

I always find it difficult to argue religion. But for those who believe a clear line can be drawn between the musically profane and profound should read the Bible's 'Song of Solomon' again.

Closer to home I was recently listening to Leonard Cohen's 'Halleluja" - I always thought it was a Gospel song:

I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah


Then I listened to the rest of it....
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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