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PCEA vs Kikuyu Kiama
Rank: Elder Joined: 11/5/2010 Posts: 2,459
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kawi254 wrote:Rahatupu wrote:Lolest! wrote:That fight between the biggest church in Kikuyuland in the colonial days is back. Back then it was about female circumcision and traditional dances, today, it's something called mburi ya kiama.  The bile on that post on their fb page  See comments https://web.facebook.com/pceaonline/
At this rate they will even oppose circumcision. Let the kiama kia ma be its one of the few items of custom that remains after the "church" demonised all else. Asking for the Latin speakers, "What is mburi cia kiama ?" I see nobody is answering your question. Here we go. Direct translation means "mbuzi ya chama". Chama here meaning the elders council. For you to be admitted into the council, your old man takes a goat to the wazees. Quite an elaborate process as explained by @kaigangio. By the time you become one of them, a number of goats will have gone. Personal opinion. The church is right. And it will win this hands down. Of all the functions, @kaigangio explained up there, the council does nothing to advance the community's interests. It's just like a members club which gives you bragging rights. Apart from the meetings, eating goat meat and drinking muratina from cow horns (ruhia), there is nothing much a young man would gain by joining.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Reasoning from personal preference/interest is decidedly a logical fallacy.
Considering that this is our pet reasoning style, is it a wonder that we live in a 'shit hole' country?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 4,058 Location: Gwitu
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The mostly fiercely battle between PCEA and traditionalists was the "Muthirigu" about female circumcision way back in the 1950s. This one about Mburi cia Kiama is just a side show. Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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FRM2011 wrote:kawi254 wrote:Rahatupu wrote:Lolest! wrote:That fight between the biggest church in Kikuyuland in the colonial days is back. Back then it was about female circumcision and traditional dances, today, it's something called mburi ya kiama. The bile on that post on their fb page See comments https://web.facebook.com/pceaonline/
At this rate they will even oppose circumcision. Let the kiama kia ma be its one of the few items of custom that remains after the "church" demonised all else. Asking for the Latin speakers, "What is mburi cia kiama ?" I see nobody is answering your question. Here we go. Direct translation means "mbuzi ya chama". Chama here meaning the elders council. For you to be admitted into the council, your old man takes a goat to the wazees. Quite an elaborate process as explained by @kaigangio. By the time you become one of them, a number of goats will have gone. Personal opinion. The church is right. And it will win this hands down. Of all the functions, @kaigangio explained up there, the council does nothing to advance the community's interests. It's just like a members club which gives you bragging rights. Apart from the meetings, eating goat meat and drinking muratina from cow horns (ruhia), there is nothing much a young man would gain by joining. What would they lose and what would the church lose? The members gain knowledge of their customs and rites and how to be men. The cause of the society is also discussed and advanced.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Rahatupu wrote:Lolest! wrote:That fight between the biggest church in Kikuyuland in the colonial days is back. Back then it was about female circumcision and traditional dances, today, it's something called mburi ya kiama. The bile on that post on their fb page See comments https://web.facebook.com/pceaonline/
At this rate they will even oppose circumcision. Let the kiama kia ma be its one of the few items of custom that remains after the "church" demonised all else. This one the PCEA Church is going to lose and badly. Watch as the trickle out becomes a stampede. Probably. It was very brave of them. Most people will not leave. People value church membership even if they later accuse it of being a white man's religion. They want their kids to be members there. They want to be able to say I worship at this place in small talk in parties, they want to be known in church circles so that the same mzungu god servants that they so much claim to loathe officiate their funeral services. Hapo kwa Eulogy pia they want that part for 'CHURCH' to be filled and elaborate. What they are forgetting is that people have a choice today, unlike 70 years ago when they bestrode all spheres of life. I am not a Christian but I have been observing some interesting things every time a friend or relative drags me to church. One of them is the shortage of young people and male members in mainstream Churches. I even noticed that the same PCEA Church has been relaxing some of its intrusive "Mutaratara" rules of behavior, after deriding the Catholic Church for doing the same in the 70's. Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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FRM2011 wrote:kawi254 wrote:Rahatupu wrote:Lolest! wrote:That fight between the biggest church in Kikuyuland in the colonial days is back. Back then it was about female circumcision and traditional dances, today, it's something called mburi ya kiama. The bile on that post on their fb page See comments https://web.facebook.com/pceaonline/
At this rate they will even oppose circumcision. Let the kiama kia ma be its one of the few items of custom that remains after the "church" demonised all else. Asking for the Latin speakers, "What is mburi cia kiama ?" I see nobody is answering your question. Here we go. Direct translation means "mbuzi ya chama". Chama here meaning the elders council. For you to be admitted into the council, your old man takes a goat to the wazees. Quite an elaborate process as explained by @kaigangio. By the time you become one of them, a number of goats will have gone. Personal opinion. The church is right. And it will win this hands down. Of all the functions, @kaigangio explained up there, the council does nothing to advance the community's interests. It's just like a members club which gives you bragging rights. Apart from the meetings, eating goat meat and drinking muratina from cow horns (ruhia), there is nothing much a young man would gain by joining. You are wrong my friend. The Ciama does a lot to oversee the community welfare for those who are members. You cannot benefit when you are still outside. You see mr the fact that members do not divulge what is discussed in those Ciamas does not mean that there are no benefits to individuals. Actually there is alot...and I mean alot of benefits. Let me inform you right now that the fact that people participate in Ciama cia Athuri and regularly attend the sessions does not mean that they cannot afford meat elsewhere or at their homes. Most of them are high income earners!! The meat here symbolises sharing and participants do not eat much. Muratina symbolises something else. @FRM2011 What does Muratina in Ciama cia Athuri or other Kikuyu ceremonies symbolise? ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/27/2007 Posts: 2,768
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Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Rahatupu wrote:Lolest! wrote:That fight between the biggest church in Kikuyuland in the colonial days is back. Back then it was about female circumcision and traditional dances, today, it's something called mburi ya kiama. The bile on that post on their fb page See comments https://web.facebook.com/pceaonline/
At this rate they will even oppose circumcision. Let the kiama kia ma be its one of the few items of custom that remains after the "church" demonised all else. This one the PCEA Church is going to lose and badly. Watch as the trickle out becomes a stampede. Probably. It was very brave of them. Most people will not leave. People value church membership even if they later accuse it of being a white man's religion. They want their kids to be members there. They want to be able to say I worship at this place in small talk in parties, they want to be known in church circles so that the same mzungu god servants that they so much claim to loathe officiate their funeral services. Hapo kwa Eulogy pia they want that part for 'CHURCH' to be filled and elaborate. What they are forgetting is that people have a choice today, unlike 70 years ago when they bestrode all spheres of life. I am not a Christian but I have been observing some interesting things every time a friend or relative drags me to church. One of them is the shortage of young people and male members in mainstream Churches. I even noticed that the same PCEA Church has been relaxing some of its intrusive "Mutaratara" rules of behavior, after deriding the Catholic Church for doing the same in the 70's. Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal. You are right at Wakanyugi...The PCEA church is now feeling threatened because most of its male component of the congregation has shown her their backs for things that the church is not doing right. There are other mainstream churches who are really encouraging their male members to join the Ciama cia Athuri so that they can benefit from some things that the church cannot offer. Does it mean that these churches are going against the church doctrines? the answer is a resounding NO!! ...besides, the presence of a safe alone does not signify that there is money inside...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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Kaigangio wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Rahatupu wrote:Lolest! wrote:That fight between the biggest church in Kikuyuland in the colonial days is back. Back then it was about female circumcision and traditional dances, today, it's something called mburi ya kiama. The bile on that post on their fb page See comments https://web.facebook.com/pceaonline/
At this rate they will even oppose circumcision. Let the kiama kia ma be its one of the few items of custom that remains after the "church" demonised all else. This one the PCEA Church is going to lose and badly. Watch as the trickle out becomes a stampede. Probably. It was very brave of them. Most people will not leave. People value church membership even if they later accuse it of being a white man's religion. They want their kids to be members there. They want to be able to say I worship at this place in small talk in parties, they want to be known in church circles so that the same mzungu god servants that they so much claim to loathe officiate their funeral services. Hapo kwa Eulogy pia they want that part for 'CHURCH' to be filled and elaborate. What they are forgetting is that people have a choice today, unlike 70 years ago when they bestrode all spheres of life. I am not a Christian but I have been observing some interesting things every time a friend or relative drags me to church. One of them is the shortage of young people and male members in mainstream Churches. I even noticed that the same PCEA Church has been relaxing some of its intrusive "Mutaratara" rules of behavior, after deriding the Catholic Church for doing the same in the 70's. Picking a fight with the Kiama, at a time when traditional institutions have been on a renaissance everywhere, is scoring a stupid own goal. You are right at Wakanyugi...The PCEA church is now feeling threatened because most of its male component of the congregation has shown her their backs for things that the church is not doing right. There are other mainstream churches who are really encouraging their male members to join the Ciama cia Athuri so that they can benefit from some things that the church cannot offer. Does it mean that these churches are going against the church doctrines? the answer is a resounding NO!!  Educate this chap @from2001 for he know not what he is saying.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Quote:@Lolest wacha kumanganga and stick to the topic! From what I have explained above about the admission and working of the Ciaama cia Athuri could you please point out what these Ciamas do that the church does not do.
By the way, circumcision of girls has never been and was never an agenda in Ciama activities and deliberations and was never dealt with at Ciama level. That part which you've not mentioned. The part for offering sacrifices to ancestors. That's worship.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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alma1 wrote:Lolest! wrote:murchr wrote:Its a pity that the African is so brain washed to think his traditions are evil yet he will accept and participate in other cultures and traditions such as eating the body (sacrament) and drinking the blood. Ndio sasa PCEA wanasema if you want to follow those ways of your ancestors ujue hailingani na Ukristo. Why do people still want to be recognized as Christians if they think it's foreign and that our ancestors' ways were perfect? Just be true to the god of the mountain and also to your ancestors. Pour libations and sacrifice to them. Go the whole hog and circumcise your daughters. It's the superior way of the ancestors, right? This is the reason why I say Africans are very confused. Very confused. No wonder we have so many problems. If you decide you are a Christian. Please stick to Christinity. If you decide you are a Muslim. Please stick to Islam. If you decide you are a kiama kinda fella, PCEA has said wewe sio wao. Sasa mnataka nini? This confusion in the Kikuyu especially is just a bit too much. You will never see me joining a kiama coz I see absolutely no purpose for it. Other than eating the money from a young guy hustling to marry their daughter. What purpose is this Kiama thing? Watu wachague. Stop being confused and bringing confusion to your own families. Yeah, choose for yourselves as Joshua said. Or as Elijah asked, 'For how long will you waver between 2 opinions?'
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