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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Anti_Burglar wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=D32]Some say that there are no absolutes. Certain subjects can have absolutes, while others cannot, e.g. beauty does not absolutes, because it is relative to the eye of the beholder, whereas the answer to the question of the existence of God must have an absolute answer because God either exists or does not. He cannot both exist and not exist at the same time for obvious inconsistencies. Some say that there are no absolutes then someone steals their car, then they go like, "hey that guy just stole my car!", then someone responds "what's wrong with stealing?" He explains that in the paradigm of the thief, theft is relative, it is not wrong if the thief needs to feed his family, so don't complain that your car has been stolen. Relativity. Above is how a relative world view would play out, but in an absolute world view, theft is morally wrong, irrespective, because the moral code has been authored by the creator, and we can use that moral code to discern right from wrong. The next question is, how do we know what is the truth? Which God is the true God, if there is any. Patterns. In this thread, it was correct to arrive to the conclusion that patterns is a method that can be used to identify absolute truth. "Almighty has sufficiently demonstrated His greatness in both the scripture and science. The problem is not the deficiency on Gods part, but rather the dismissal on ours. Prof." Richard A. Swenson (Pls watch these before proceeding)https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1179223142108857/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1087366807961158/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1068838503147322/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1139318906099281/
https://web.facebook.com...deos/10153389535541813/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/981931031838070/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/877539372277237/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875502905814217/
https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1084660184898487/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/876399292391245/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/875827565781751/
https://web.facebook.com...videos/873768822654292/
The truth is that God exists, He created the universe and Earth with humans without sin, but due to man's fall, man was destined to be destroyed because the penalty for sin is death, but God in His mercy and love for Man, decided to let the penalty for sin to fall on himself. God became man in the person of Jesus. Christ's death at the cross was proof that God is who He says that He is - Loving, merciful and a God of justice. His justice was seen at the cross in that someone had to pay the penalty for sin because the wages of sin is death. God cannot say that He is a God of Justice, yet not punishing the sinner. "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 The bible is the narration of Gods plan to redeem man, starting with creation, to the fall of man, to the promise of the redeemer in (Gen 3:15), then tracing the history of Christ's lineage from our first parents to the generation that would eventually birth and crucify Christ. Because of the promise of Gen 3:15, Satan knew that that Christ was to come to render Satan powerless over man, it was then Satan's mission to prevent Christ from being birthed by fighting each generation of the lineage from which Christ would come from. After Christ was born, Satan shifted the attack to Christ directly by the decree to kill all babies born at about the expected time of Christ's birth. There was a time in earth's history when the birth, death and resurrection of Christ was prophecy in the old testament that was yet to happen, but today, that prophecy is past history, fulfilled about 2000 years ago. More than 90% of the prophecies in the bible have been fulfilled, only a few are remaining. The biggest one remaining being the end of the world that will be marked be Christ's second coming. If the first more that 90% got fulfilled, why would anyone think that the remaining prophecies will not be fulfilled? https://web.facebook.com...ideos/1133336743364164/ I could poke so many holes in your treatise. But if there is one thing I have learned in life it is this: 'Arguing with a closed mind (or religion) is a mugs game.' Peace Occasionally, we come across impossible questions that we cannot refute for the life us. It is ok to feel incompetent in the face of such questions. It is also ok to walk away from them. It is also ok to accept there are other valid perspectives out there. You are terribly right...  I am utterly shocked and seriously perturbed by your embrace! Why have you said the thing you have said? Why did you threaten another but embrace me? By that, what are you up to? What is wrong with agreeing with you? Is it illegal? And I did not threaten R2D32. I simply declined to engage. There is nothing wrong in agreeing with me and I agree with you. I only wish for more harmony from others just as you have done without bullying and overbearing. Unlike some cyber cesspools I know, Wazua is a fairly civilized place to have robust debates, and we do tend to chose 'safe' topics most of the time. I would not worry too much about causing offense through disagreeing so long as this is respectfully done. Of course I admit I did try to have Mulla Alphadoti place a fatwa on Tycho one time, but he had brought it upon himself  Now that he has left the epistemological 'dark side' we are good friends again (I hope). "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:murchr wrote:Science is not a myth OK, I'll bite How so? Suppose we have a theory of all things in say, M-theory, and all 'branes' in whatever dimension are causally connected, wouldn't that mean that all relativity is in fact an absolute? Such that, all things are both absolute and relative. Myth and not myth. Wave, and particle. Everything is a 'quantum particle'. So the question would be one of describing conditions or perhaps situations when science isn't a myth. By the way, mathematics could be an absolute myth, if it can join all dimensions of space time in a 'compactified universe'? If M-theory is a mathematical theory, then we'd have reason to believe it even before 'scientific proof' is given. Conclusion? Science isn't a myth when described in equations of uncertainty.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Wakanyugi, why do I suspect 'epistemological darkness' is a euphemism for something not so pleasant?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Wakanyugi wrote:murchr wrote:Science is not a myth OK, I'll bite How so? Because this is what a MYTH is Quote:Full Definition of myth
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a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
b : parable, allegory
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a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs>
b : an unfounded or false notion
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: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence And science Quote:Full Definition of science
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a : knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation
b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
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a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science Myths = Stories. Science = tried and tested theories "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, why do I suspect 'epistemological darkness' is a euphemism for something not so pleasant? People! Can you stop reading things I have not yet written. This is like burning a man at the stake for a sin he has only thought of committing. I was simply referring to your penchant for dialing down your massive intellect whenever Wazuans complain that they don't get you. Plus that other obsession with absolutes, even where you have admitted none exist. But for me, the first sin is much more cardinal than the second(see my signature). People grow when you you grow, not when you force yourself to shrink. The fear of causing offense, or seeming arrogant or (gasp!) being thought a nerd, is worth it in the greater breadth of things. Of course you have a comeback: why should I care? Good question..... "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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murchr wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:murchr wrote:Science is not a myth OK, I'll bite How so? Because this is what a MYTH is Quote:Full Definition of myth
1
a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
b : parable, allegory
2
a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs>
b : an unfounded or false notion
3
: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence And science Quote:Full Definition of science
1
a : knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation
b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
2
a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science Myths = Stories. Science = tried and tested theories Thank you I invite you to read the two definitions again, ignore the pejorative pieces about myth and the 'factual' pieces about science. You will see that my earlier definition applies to both 'a lens through which people seek to understand reality or an aspect of it.' Simply because scientists, like you, say science is factual does not make it so. Otherwise we would not be having this kind of conversation where we admit so much of science is uncertain (illusion). In fact a key characteristic of any scientific theory is, it must be falsifiable, meaning it can be supplanted by new knowledge (no absolute). Similarly, simply because a majority of scientifically brainwashed people (you again) say myths are false does not make them so. For thousands of years myths were the only lens we had to understand complex reality and they worked. In fact very few of them have been actually disproven. Please read Campbell's 'Masks of God' or even Mbithi, if you doubt me. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, why do I suspect 'epistemological darkness' is a euphemism for something not so pleasant? People! Can you stop reading things I have not yet written. This is like burning a man at the stake for a sin he has only thought of committing. I was simply referring to your penchant for dialing down your massive intellect whenever Wazuans complain that they don't get you. Plus that other obsession with absolutes, even where you have admitted none exist. But for me, the first sin is much more cardinal than the second(see my signature). People grow when you you grow, not when you force yourself to shrink. The fear of causing offense, or seeming arrogant or (gasp!) being thought a nerd, is worth it in the greater breadth of things. Of course you have a comeback: why should I care? Good question..... 'Epistemological darkness' sounds so much like 'ignorance' and since I didn't get the intent you've given I saw the humor and truth and jumped to conclusions... Why should you care? Because you and I are related by laws, and our actions are dictated by these laws, no matter the relativity. So even if our frames of reference remain relative, and events differ, we enact the same laws even when we can't appreciate that fact. Notice that this keeps my admission on relativity on the previous posts somehow intact...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:@Wakanyugi, why do I suspect 'epistemological darkness' is a euphemism for something not so pleasant? 'Epistemological darkness' sounds so much like 'ignorance' and since I didn't get the intent you've given I saw the humor and truth and jumped to conclusions... Why should you care? Because you and I are related by laws, and our actions are dictated by these laws, no matter the relativity. So even if our frames of reference remain relative, and events differ, we enact the same laws even when we can't appreciate that fact. Notice that this keeps my admission on relativity on the previous posts somehow intact... "Epistemological dark side" as in Star Wars, not darkness. I think there is a difference. But no matter. As for having different frames of reference, I believe that is a given. We each have a unique frame of reference, that is what it means to 'create your own reality.' The true miracle is that we are able to find such consensus over so much variety and 'difference.' I think having an open mind and being humble enough to admit that all this could be 'vanity' has something to do with it. Alas the reverse situation is much too common and harmful in my opinion. For instance the political polarization we are seeing in our country comes from a few people who insist on holding onto their unique frames of reference no matter what, and large majorities of followers, on both sides, who have largely delegated thinking to their so called leaders. Kenya needs more Tycho not less. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 2/2/2012 Posts: 1,134 Location: Nairobi
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It is quite interesting to 'listen' to non-scientists discussing science & scientists....making comments like "scientists believe that..." forgetting that science is not about belief but evidence.
Many years ago, we used to joke that no real scientist uses what social scientists call 'scientific method'. It was a joke, so don't hang me with it!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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chiaroscuro wrote:It is quite interesting to 'listen' to non-scientists discussing science & scientists....making comments like "scientists believe that..." forgetting that science is not about belief but evidence.
Today's evidence is tomorrows lie. Even the 'proven' speed of light seems to be in doubt.Surely it would not hurt you scientists to be humble, seeing as how many of your words you have had to chew over the ages. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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