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why do i vote YES for Kenya proposed constitution
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Soko tele
#11 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 10:07:44 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 8/19/2008
Posts: 60
@ Wendz............when cases that have been handled by Kadhi courts are appealed in High court or court of appeal, are all judges on the bench Muslims???
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Wendz
#12 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 10:12:09 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
masukuma wrote:
@aemathenge, thanks. I also think people should be aware that this is a crapy law
Quote:
Supremacy of this Constitution
2. (1) This Constitution is the supreme law of the Republic and binds all persons
and all State organs at both levels of government.
(2) No person may claim or exercise State authority except as authorised under
this Constitution.
(3) The validity or legality of this Constitution is not subject to challenge by or
before any court or other State organ. This is very important because constitution is what makes the country and any other laws that govern everyone stem from the constitution... the moment you make it challegeable in courts of law, then it stops being a constitution.... its like questioning your own existence or the mission of the company.... when the mission starts being challenged, the the entire existence of the organisation stops.... only that in kenya, no one believes in these missions anyway... but thats how serious it is.
(4) Any law, including customary law, that is inconsistent with this
Constitution is void to the extent of the inconsistency, and any act or
omission in contravention of this Constitution is invalid.
(5) The general rules of international law shall form part of the law of Kenya. Yes, this is because we do not live in an island. and we need international laws if our own kenyan laws are not followed.... otherwise, there wouldnt be need for ICC.... and kenya being a signatory or agreeing to be under the UN, then these laws are important to ensure that there is co-existence with our neighboring countries etc.
(6) Any treaty or convention ratified by Kenya shall form part of the law of Kenya under this Constitution.
The assumption is that, we, as the kenyan people are rational enough to elect people who truly represent us and give them that mandate... you wouldnt expect other countries to come and ask eveyrone of us in kenya to vote for a part of law that need to be included...... if we cant trust our leaders to make the right decisions for us, then too bad we are stuck with the crap decisions they make because when we elect our leaders, we agree to be bound by their actions... just like the way shareholders are bound by the actions of the CEO that they have appointed to run their company....

Eh...Who is Kenya? The Government? What if the government ratifies a treaty that annexes part of the Kenyan border (for a while - maybe 999 years) to some foreign land. At what point will Kenyans be consulted?


Those would be my layman's explanations that I believe made sense if you look at them with an open mind. Now, imagine if we say no to this draft, and we get only one masukuma....... how long will it take to have a new constitution with all these issues that are emerging now? I thought we had been given several months to raise our issues with the committee on this?
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Wendz
#13 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 10:13:47 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
Soko tele wrote:
@ Wendz............when cases that have been handled by Kadhi courts are appealed in High court or court of appeal, are all judges on the bench Muslims???


They do not have to be ALL Muslims but whatever decision they make, they are guided by the Khadhi. There is no appeal of any cases from the Kadhi courts that can be conducted in absense of the kadhi.... and even the judges wouldnt accept to conduct such as that wouldnt be justice.
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, May 03, 2010 10:21 AM | Reason: Not specified
muganda
#14 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 11:33:28 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
TIMEOUT GUYS smile

I actually thought we'd take the effort to go through all the Chapters systematically and avoid the trap of always back to Kadhi and Abortion clauses. Me I'd just said what I liked on the accompanying briefs and then begun on Chapter 1...

@masukuma in the old constitution Kenya was defined as a 'definition'. In the new constitution, I see it is defined in the beginning of Chapter 2, much better if I may say so. In 1 (3) of new constitution, the People (us) clearly delegate authority to state organs. Under the old constitution - hakuna



Okay let me continue, as per @slammers challenge, with my opinions on what I like with these points from Chapter 2:

point 04. It's quite clear that the second chapter is well thought out in my view. I like the idea of first describing the Republic of Kenya - territory, levels of government, national values, principles, culture etc.

I can't belive that thus far our current constitution doesn't mention the flag, anthem and culture. Is my search not working, Kenyans keep going on and on about culture and our current constitution doesn't speak once about our heritage???

(7) National language of Republic is Kiswahili
This one simple statement does not exist in our current constitution. In fact only reference I found was to the official languages of conducting business of the national assembly.

(8) There shall be no state religion
This one simple statement does not exist in our current constitution - surprising!
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, May 03, 2010 11:35 AM | Reason: point
nanfor1
#15 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 11:38:02 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
this is the danger of having the clergy becoming constitutinal law experts. All of a sudden, they quote one sentence and the world is coming to an end.

I would humbly suggest that if anyone has issues with any part of the constitution do what my pastor did this weekend.

He brought a few lawyers who debated and argued the various issues the flock had. We had Yes lawyers and No lawyers. It was eye opening.

At the end of the session. it was some 6 hours on Sunday afternoon, the majority found out that someone had been lying to them.

If you really value your sanity, ask your pastor to do the same. Most of the shouting pastors as i call them are really bad lawyers if you ask me.

Ladies

Do you know that you are not guaranteed citizenship in the current constitution? Now that got the women folk voting Yes.

Sorry Masukuma, no wonder you have issues with the draft. You may have read it but you have absoulutely no understanding of what it means. Now that is dangerous.
Hata wakizima taa
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famooz
#16 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 11:55:42 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
Now you Nanfor1,could you please give the forum a summary of the 6 hours in church with your non- shouting pastor and the lawyers
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nanfor1
#17 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 12:04:49 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
@famooz I keep on saying that I don't get information that will affect my kids from wazua, politicians or the clergy.

I prefer going to see my doctor after I have prayed + a little gin and tonic.

The simple summary is in my point of view

Judging from the electrifying, exciting and eye opening debate between pro and against lawyer, this constitution is much better than what we currently have.

So I will vote Yes.

If that is irritating to you, that is fine. You go vote No. We shall all pray to the same God for each other to see sense. But as with all constitutions, the majority will rule.
Hata wakizima taa
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:07 PM | Reason: Not specified
AmHere
#18 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 12:22:42 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 93
I agree with @muganda's suggestion of keeping the discussion focused on the document.
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2012
#19 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 12:47:52 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
I'm voting YES and you should vote YES because we're in a constitutional crisis, yes ladies and gentlemen; there is a vacuum. The Lancaster Constitution expired on 29th December 2007 when we fought. We're currently being governed by a temporary ceasefire MOU crafted by Annan. How will you go to 2012 election without an Electoral Commission? How will you apply the expired Constitution in and after 2012?

BBI will solve it :)
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masukuma
#20 Posted : Monday, May 03, 2010 1:22:23 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@nanfor1, I have read the draft and selectively read the current draft (something most of the commentators on this forum have not). I take great exception to your claim that i do not understand what i have read. I echo the clergy on this - The draft is somehow good (so was the Wako draft) but I take exception to some matters in it. It has great advantages over the current draft but not all we want and its a case of ASKING Kindly and holding a stick if it fails.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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