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What is Democracy?
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Wakanyugi wrote:Njung'e wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:...The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. Hey!!!!...  ....are your sure they call that democracy? A Kenyan friend used to call it 'guided democracy' Hypocrisy of democracy! The reality is that democracy is seriously flawed political enterprise. We need to stop treating democracy like a God. We need to stop using terms like democracy and freedom. Democracy is very easily corruptible. Susceptible to some of the worst forms of humanity as we have seen in trump election: illusion of choice, manufactured consent... Noam Chomsky in his book: Manufacturing consent talks about how mass media works against the pple's best interest and essentially brainwashes the pple, indoctrinate them, so that they think they have the illusion of choice but in reality, they don't have an actual choice. So yes, it is a tool, but it has serious cons.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women). That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable. The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. @Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance? Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe. As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree. As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong. My question about Plato is mostly directed to your first paragraph in your response. It's related to 'forms' and in this case one would infer that 'democracy' is a form out there that is accessible in varying degrees. @Lolest also seems to have similar sentiments. I suspect that formism is outdated or untrue and probably the question posed by @Lolest is not properly stated...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women). That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable. The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. @Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance? Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe. As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree. As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong. My question about Plato is mostly directed to your first paragraph in your response. It's related to 'forms' and in this case one would infer that 'democracy' is a form out there that is accessible in varying degrees.@Lolest also seems to have similar sentiments. I suspect that formism is outdated or untrue and probably the question posed by @Lolest is not properly stated... In that case yes, you could say I am a Platonista. Where he uses the term 'form' I use 'pattern' - same difference. The discussion we are having would seem to indicate that formism is not outdated at all Democracy is an ideal in conceptual form - more real in our mind than outside it. Our frustration with the concept comes largely from the difficulty we have in reproducing it into the perceptual world of space and time, human relations and other 'imperfections' that attend Earthly reality. But Plato would also say that the it is not in realizing democracy that we achieve greatness but rather in the striving towards the unattainable. The effort is more important than the reward. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/25/2012 Posts: 1,826
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Platonista ni plato that had me confused at some point.
assuming non BA philosophy majors are allowed to contribute, mimi kwa maoni yangu democracy is like nyama choma and the feast that follows and those on the outside quenching their saliva thirst.
so democracy is that process of determining who gets to eat meat, and a lack of democracy is whatever those who 'meza mate' say.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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sitaki.kujulikana wrote:Platonista ni plato that had me confused at some point.
assuming non BA philosophy majors are allowed to contribute, mimi kwa maoni yangu democracy is like nyama choma and the feast that follows and those on the outside quenching their saliva thirst.
so democracy is that process of determining who gets to eat meat, and a lack of democracy is whatever those who 'meza mate' say. That is the classic Jubilee definition of democracy, also known as 'kusema na kutender'. Your cynicism is valid. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Democracy is electing the least popular guy among the poor but the most popular guy among the rich If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,937
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Seeing Koigi join JP to contest Nakuru Senatorial seat and supporting UMK to the core shows you cleely how democracy works in Africa. Always join your tribal king or perish!!! In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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Angelica _ann wrote:Seeing Koigi join JP to contest Nakuru Senatorial seat and supporting UMK to the core shows you cleely how democracy works in Africa. Always join your tribal king or perish!!! Read my post! it explains it all!! Nyongo and his SDP run against Raila in 1997 akaonyeshwa moto, Orengo run against Raila in 2002 and wakaonyeshwa moto... so they have towed the line. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women). That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable. The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. @Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance? Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe. As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree. As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong. My question about Plato is mostly directed to your first paragraph in your response. It's related to 'forms' and in this case one would infer that 'democracy' is a form out there that is accessible in varying degrees.@Lolest also seems to have similar sentiments. I suspect that formism is outdated or untrue and probably the question posed by @Lolest is not properly stated... In that case yes, you could say I am a Platonista. Where he uses the term 'form' I use 'pattern' - same difference. The discussion we are having would seem to indicate that formism is not outdated at all Democracy is an ideal in conceptual form - more real in our mind than outside it. Our frustration with the concept comes largely from the difficulty we have in reproducing it into the perceptual world of space and time, human relations and other 'imperfections' that attend Earthly reality. But Plato would also say that the it is not in realizing democracy that we achieve greatness but rather in the striving towards the unattainable. The effort is more important than the reward. How do things get outdated? When their usefulness is depleted, not when their names are 'unuttered'. So talk about forms doesn't make forms relevant, at least in practical conduct. Your last paragraph is about Plato being a champion of fantasy. And that, he recommends fantasy, or action driven by fantasy. Why? Because one kind of fantasy is better than another? There must be a way that goes beyond fantasy.In making democracy a fantasy, and insisting that it's also not a fantasy, is a ridiculous position.
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