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Resurrection day
masukuma
#21 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 10:47:45 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
AlphDoti
#22 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:02:31 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:


ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


These squiggles are very useful for us! Very legible!

Even baby class kids think class one book is a series of meaningless squiggles... So I understand your position smile smile smile
AlphDoti
#23 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:10:35 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]
Wakanyugi
#24 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:46:53 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
AlphDoti wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Once again the questions I've prompted @Alph to reconsider arise...

My definition of death is the disengagement of the soul from the body. The first outward sign is stop of breathing. But not breathing alone doesn't mean death.

As for the day when the body and soul are reunited again, I refer to this as resurrection.

Human beings (scientists) are not the owners of the law of life. Yes, they can create the environment that either sustains life or that destroys life. No scientists is able to resurrect. And they will not be able. Ever.

I still think this a rather limited definition, even from a religious point of view.

I don't know the Koran or even the Bible very well. But when I read the story of Isa and his 'death' and 'resurrection' (including the examples where he 'raised people from the dead') I am persuaded to conclude that his key lesson for us was this:

"We can conquer death, the way he did, but we must first realize that we are much more than the limits of our bodies. That we are not our bodies at all, we just wear these wonderful instruments for a while."

In fact I think there is a place Isa said something like, 'much worse than bodily death, is the death of the soul.'

Again this is not an area I am well versed in, so I admit I could be wrong.

This is for @Wakanyugi only:

ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." [Quran 5:110]

So from the above verse (there are many such verses) we learn that whatever Isa (Jesus son of Mary) did was with the permission of Allah (Almighty God).

So similarly, the dead body of Lazarus couldn't come back alive without soul put in by creator of the soul.


Thank you for this explanation. And, as I expected, you are going to get into some problems with our resident Christians Fundamentalists for daring to knock on their closed minds. Two things:

1. My explanation of what Isa's key message was is my own personal interpretation. It is certainly not shared by many Christians. I claim no real knowledge here.

2. My explanation of death and the limitation of descriptions that imply that we die when the body stops breathing, is based on my personal belief, one that I have thought about over many years and can back with some reasoned 'evidence.' Again not something shared by many including on this board.

It seems that we are in love with death, even as we claim to fear it - so much so that we have created whole belief systems, industries and philosophies around it.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
AlphDoti
#25 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 11:57:50 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
tycho wrote:
Once again the questions I've prompted @Alph to reconsider arise...

My definition of death is the disengagement of the soul from the body. The first outward sign is stop of breathing. But not breathing alone doesn't mean death.

As for the day when the body and soul are reunited again, I refer to this as resurrection.

Human beings (scientists) are not the owners of the law of life. Yes, they can create the environment that either sustains life or that destroys life. No scientists is able to resurrect. And they will not be able. Ever.

I still think this a rather limited definition, even from a religious point of view.

I don't know the Koran or even the Bible very well. But when I read the story of Isa and his 'death' and 'resurrection' (including the examples where he 'raised people from the dead') I am persuaded to conclude that his key lesson for us was this:

"We can conquer death, the way he did, but we must first realize that we are much more than the limits of our bodies. That we are not our bodies at all, we just wear these wonderful instruments for a while."

In fact I think there is a place Isa said something like, 'much worse than bodily death, is the death of the soul.'

Again this is not an area I am well versed in, so I admit I could be wrong.

This is for @Wakanyugi only:

ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." [Quran 5:110]

So from the above verse (there are many such verses) we learn that whatever Isa (Jesus son of Mary) did was with the permission of Allah (Almighty God).

So similarly, the dead body of Lazarus couldn't come back alive without soul put in by creator of the soul.

Thank you for this explanation. And, as I expected, you are going to get into some problems with our resident Christians Fundamentalists for daring to knock on their closed minds. Two things:

1. My explanation of what Isa's key message was is my own personal interpretation. It is certainly not shared by many Christians. I claim no real knowledge here.

2. My explanation of death and the limitation of descriptions that imply that we die when the body stops breathing, is based on my personal belief, one that I have thought about over many years and can back with some reasoned 'evidence.' Again not something shared by many including on this board.

It seems that we are in love with death, even as we claim to fear it - so much so that we have created whole belief systems, industries and philosophies around it.

I'm all-round person, so let them feel free for any dialogue. Just produce your evidence.

1. Gaining knowledge is a continuous process. So keep up.

2. Be willing to learn more. Just breathing isn't living (Eleanor Porter)! And not breathing isn't necessarily dead.

And do not fear death, it's a fact. In fact it should remind you of where you will go next. Try to be prepared.
Wakanyugi
#26 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:03:47 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?


This is the same argument we had here again with Tycho playing antagonist: do stones have consciousness?'

My answer is this:

Unity expresses itself in many, many, many forms. These include as human 'being', planets, rocks, Universes and, yes, chickens. Most dimensioned realities (Earth is one) require order, including that we place a 'hierarchy' on things and events.

In our reality, unfortunately, the lowly chicken it seems is assigned a fairly low place on the totem pole (except in Luyialand of course). But this order is our creation and ultimately means nothing.

To the fragment of Unity expressing itself as chicken, I believe there is no hierarchy at all vis a vis the one expressing as Masukuma, even though one eats the other.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#27 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:08:33 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]


Me I think even animals are accountable, only in a slightly different manner to humans.

What is instinct if not accountability?

Can a chicken argue with the law of gravity, or its genetic nature or the threat from the hawk in the sky?

Is that not accountability?
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
masukuma
#28 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:09:51 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]

So there is chicken paradise where everything a chicken thinks about is fulfilled? streets of layers mash? swimming in chick mash? is this in the same place near cat paradise? do cats eat rats in cat paradise? or is cat paradise rat hell? i.e. where all bad rats are sent to get punished?

This free will thing is kinda dicy! have you ever kept cattle or dogs? You can tell two cows or dogs have different "personalities". You find that one is prone to naughtiness! I remember one of my uncle's cows when pondering this point. She had bright eyes... and she would look you in a certain way before she decided to do certain naughty things. she would wait until you are almost done milking her and she would look at you and deliberately step in the milk bucket!! She had a bright eyed look! her roommate was chilled out! she did everything as expected - she was not naughty. Could we then deduce that from comparing these two cows that they have at least "plastic will"? I have also struggled to figure out - who actually coined the term "free will"... where is it found? is it a moniker representing sentience? intelligence?

On the squiggles - you pasting them here is as useful as reading the War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy to nursery kids. No one but you and I guess @kuru who understands. Ama unataka kuwa kama huyu jamaa

loving the sound of his voice and entertains himself by throwing big words at people never caring whether he is communicating or not...
Kwa ufupi - COMMUNICATE!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
AlphDoti
#29 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:14:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Wakanyugi wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]


Me I think even animals are accountable, only in a slightly different manner to humans.

What is instinct if not accountability?

Can a chicken argue with the law of gravity, or its genetic nature or the threat from the hawk in the sky?

Is that not accountability?

@Wakanyugi you have a point. They will be accountable.

The Hadith from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (may Allah exalt his mention) said: "All the creatures will be resurrected on the Day of Judgment; animals, birds and everything else. Allah's Justice will reach everyone to the extent that the hornless animal would get its revenge from the horned one and thereafter, they would be told to become dust".
AlphDoti
#30 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:20:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:


ﺇِﺫْ ﻗَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟﻠَّﻪُ ﻳَٰﻌِﻴﺴَﻰ ٱﺑْﻦَ ﻣَﺮْﻳَﻢَ ٱﺫْﻛُﺮْ ﻧِﻌْﻤَﺘِﻰ ﻋَﻠَﻴْﻚَ ﻭَﻋَﻠَﻰٰ ﻭَٰﻟِﺪَﺗِﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺃَﻳَّﺪﺗُّﻚَ ﺑِﺮُﻭﺡِ ٱﻟْﻘُﺪُﺱِ ﺗُﻜَﻠِّﻢُ ٱﻟﻨَّﺎﺱَ ﻓِﻰ ٱﻟْﻤَﻬْﺪِ ﻭَﻛَﻬْﻼً ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻋَﻠَّﻤْﺘُﻚَ ٱﻟْﻜِﺘَٰﺐَ ﻭَٱﻟْﺤِﻜْﻤَﺔَ ﻭَٱﻟﺘَّﻮْﺭَﻯٰﺓَ ﻭَٱﻹِْﻧﺠِﻴﻞَ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗَﺨْﻠُﻖُ ﻣِﻦَ ٱﻟﻄِّﻴﻦِ ﻛَﻬَﻴْـَٔﺔِ ٱﻟﻄَّﻴْﺮِ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ﻓَﺘَﻨﻔُﺦُ ﻓِﻴﻬَﺎ ﻓَﺘَﻜُﻮﻥُ ﻃَﻴْﺮًۢا ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺗُﺒْﺮِﺉُ ٱﻷَْﻛْﻤَﻪَ ﻭَٱﻷَْﺑْﺮَﺹَ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﺗُﺨْﺮِﺝُ ٱﻟْﻤَﻮْﺗَﻰٰ ﺑِﺈِﺫْﻧِﻰ ۖ ﻭَﺇِﺫْ ﻛَﻔَﻔْﺖُ ﺑَﻨِﻰٓ ﺇِﺳْﺮَٰٓءِﻳﻞَ ﻋَﻨﻚَ ﺇِﺫْ ﺟِﺌْﺘَﻬُﻢ ﺑِﭑﻟْﺒَﻴِّﻨَٰﺖِ ﻓَﻘَﺎﻝَ ٱﻟَّﺬِﻳﻦَ ﻛَﻔَﺮُﻭا۟ ﻣِﻨْﻬُﻢْ ﺇِﻥْ ﻫَٰﺬَآ ﺇِﻻَّ ﺳِﺤْﺮٌ ﻣُّﺒِﻴﻦٌ


These squiggles are very useful for us! Very legible!

Even baby class kids think class one book is a series of meaningless squiggles... So I understand your position smile smile smile

...On the squiggles - you pasting them here is as useful as reading the War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy to nursery kids. No one but you and I guess @kuru who understands. Ama unataka kuwa kama huyu jamaa

loving the sound of his voice and entertains himself by throwing big words at people never caring whether he is communicating or not... Kwa ufupi - COMMUNICATE!

What you cannot understand does not make it squiggles. It simply means you are linguistically challenged, simply put: you are a nursery kid to some languages. Read the English part and ignore what you do not understand. But rest assured the part you do not understand is as clear as day to your fellow Christian who speaks the language.
AlphDoti
#31 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:26:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
masukuma wrote:
AlphDoti wrote:
masukuma wrote:
I have always wondered why humans thought that they qualify for an afterlife over and above a random creature say... a chicken! Do chickens have out of body experiences when We kamata their necks?

Yes they do. Your chickens have same experience. Don't you comprehend when they scream begowwwwk? And yes, animals have after life too. But the difference is that humans are accountable because they have what is called "FREE WILL". Animals and trees just act according to natural instinct. But human has choice: free will.

"And when the wild beasts shall be gathered together." [Quran 81:5]

So there is chicken paradise where everything a chicken thinks about is fulfilled? streets of layers mash? swimming in chick mash? is this in the same place near cat paradise? do cats eat rats in cat paradise? or is cat paradise rat hell? i.e. where all bad rats are sent to get punished?

This free will thing is kinda dicy! have you ever kept cattle or dogs? You can tell two cows or dogs have different "personalities". You find that one is prone to naughtiness! I remember one of my uncle's cows when pondering this point. She had bright eyes... and she would look you in a certain way before she decided to do certain naughty things. she would wait until you are almost done milking her and she would look at you and deliberately step in the milk bucket!! She had a bright eyed look! her roommate was chilled out! she did everything as expected - she was not naughty. Could we then deduce that from comparing these two cows that they have at least "plastic will"? I have also struggled to figure out - who actually coined the term "free will"... where is it found? is it a moniker representing sentience? intelligence?

Good to know you and your uncle's cow are same.

Free will is too plain I guess. We need another term to explain to you the difference between animals and humans. Maybe self-reflect. But for now, I leave it that, because I do not know how I can educate you.
Wakanyugi
#32 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 12:59:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
AlphDoti wrote:


Be Just breathing isn't living (Eleanor Porter)! And not breathing isn't necessarily dead.


My point exactly.

Nothing to add.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Much Know
#33 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 1:31:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,554
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven, various parts of the brain that have functions such as motor, reflex, cerebellum e.t.c show that animals do not have “sapience” and the correlating brain activity, in the sections of the brain where it happens for humans. Do not mistake the “begwoook” of a chicken for thinking, even a machine can be made to respond in the same way after a beating, all about messages fired to various muscles from various parts of brain e.t.c, in other words in tychos “simulation”, we can conclude chicken are just like machines in the “video game”, for the use of the character “man”, for entertainment and eating, kuku fry, smile today we can make much more intelligent machines than chicken, and some that do things better than man, and they don’t care about ‘heaven’ for sure, and never will, they are ATHIEST like the chicken, dogs, pigs etc, i dont think tychos "scientist" will resurrect chicken either, he can tell us.

The dullest human being will give a varied communication response for many types of prompts, he will ask for food water e.t.c no animal, notwithstanding the “hundreds of millions of years” it has preexisted man can do that, speak like we do! Even with hearing and sight, the animals cannot outdo a person born deaf, blind and dumb who will find a way to communicate using signs with “people” whom they live with but have never seen or heard; you cannot say therefore it is for lack of “vocal cords” that animals don’t communicate, one or the other would "learn" to use signs to communicate. And as people have a tendency to be unequal say in “intelligence”, music, muscle, the same is seen in animals, among horses there are better runners, more “tamable” horses among horses, elephants e.t.c , sending messages from the animal to the human often appears simpler than all the ‘taming’, as for example how sure we are for instance we can communicate with aliens (from astrobiologist view and even nasa has sent communication to aliens) even without meeting them, you cannot make any animal tame to speak like the “stupidest child”

What is more interesting is that the humans brain does not only respond to the “physical” or instinctual world, but very heavily to things like emotions, ideas, notions, thoughts which are the driving force, good and bad, evil and good, there is no “evil” or “good” in the jungle, i think this leaves man in a SINGULAR position, with regards to this notion of heaven, no need bringing chicken, goats e.t.c to it.
Meru Holiness
masukuma
#34 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 2:09:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
Much Know wrote:
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven, various parts of the brain that have functions such as motor, reflex, cerebellum e.t.c show that animals do not have “sapience” and the correlating brain activity, in the sections of the brain where it happens for humans. Do not mistake the “begwoook” of a chicken for thinking, even a machine can be made to respond in the same way after a beating, all about messages fired to various muscles from various parts of brain e.t.c, in other words in tychos “simulation”, we can conclude chicken are just like machines in the “video game”, for the use of the character “man”, for entertainment and eating, kuku fry, smile today we can make much more intelligent machines than chicken, and some that do things better than man, and they don’t care about ‘heaven’ for sure, and never will, they are ATHIEST like the chicken, dogs, pigs etc, i dont think tychos "scientist" will resurrect chicken either, he can tell us.

The dullest human being will give a varied communication response for many types of prompts, he will ask for food water e.t.c no animal, notwithstanding the “hundreds of millions of years” it has preexisted man can do that, speak like we do! Even with hearing and sight, the animals cannot outdo a person born deaf, blind and dumb who will find a way to communicate using signs with “people” whom they live with but have never seen or heard; you cannot say therefore it is for lack of “vocal cords” that animals don’t communicate, one or the other would "learn" to use signs to communicate. And as people have a tendency to be unequal say in “intelligence”, music, muscle, the same is seen in animals, among horses there are better runners, more “tamable” horses among horses, elephants e.t.c , sending messages from the animal to the human often appears simpler than all the ‘taming’, as for example how sure we are for instance we can communicate with aliens (from astrobiologist view and even nasa has sent communication to aliens) even without meeting them, you cannot make any animal tame to speak like the “stupidest child”

What is more interesting is that the humans brain does not only respond to the “physical” or instinctual world, but very heavily to things like emotions, ideas, notions, thoughts which are the driving force, good and bad, evil and good, there is no “evil” or “good” in the jungle, i think this leaves man in a SINGULAR position, with regards to this notion of heaven, no need bringing chicken, goats e.t.c to it.

I agree - the human brain is possibly the 1st organ that has developed enough to ask questions and have notions of good and evil. it could be be the only thing (jn the universe) as far as we know that can deduce the notion of heaven and hell. but perhaps that then creates a second set of questions: Does the formulation of the notion of heaven imply that such a place exists? and congruently just because a creature are not interested or is incapable of formulation such a place does it then not mean it does not exist?


All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Wakanyugi
#35 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 2:34:21 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
Much Know wrote:
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven....


OK, now that I am up off the floor.

I can't say whether chicken are interested in heaven or not, I have never asked them. But let us say they are not. This would put them in good company with some humans - atheists, satanists, some scientists etc - who by their own professing,are equally not interested in heaven. What happens to the rest of your argument then?

But I am a small time chicken farmer and I can confirm one thing that chickens and humans seem to share (this from close observation). Self preservation.

It seems that both chicken and humans would like to stick around. Even those humans who express abiding interest in heaven are not in any hurry to get there.

So, back to Masukuma's point, how different are chicken and we?




"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Much Know
#36 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 2:46:03 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,554
masukuma wrote:
Much Know wrote:
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven, various parts of the brain that have functions such as motor, reflex, cerebellum e.t.c show that animals do not have “sapience” and the correlating brain activity, in the sections of the brain where it happens for humans. Do not mistake the “begwoook” of a chicken for thinking, even a machine can be made to respond in the same way after a beating, all about messages fired to various muscles from various parts of brain e.t.c, in other words in tychos “simulation”, we can conclude chicken are just like machines in the “video game”, for the use of the character “man”, for entertainment and eating, kuku fry, smile today we can make much more intelligent machines than chicken, and some that do things better than man, and they don’t care about ‘heaven’ for sure, and never will, they are ATHIEST like the chicken, dogs, pigs etc, i dont think tychos "scientist" will resurrect chicken either, he can tell us.

The dullest human being will give a varied communication response for many types of prompts, he will ask for food water e.t.c no animal, notwithstanding the “hundreds of millions of years” it has preexisted man can do that, speak like we do! Even with hearing and sight, the animals cannot outdo a person born deaf, blind and dumb who will find a way to communicate using signs with “people” whom they live with but have never seen or heard; you cannot say therefore it is for lack of “vocal cords” that animals don’t communicate, one or the other would "learn" to use signs to communicate. And as people have a tendency to be unequal say in “intelligence”, music, muscle, the same is seen in animals, among horses there are better runners, more “tamable” horses among horses, elephants e.t.c , sending messages from the animal to the human often appears simpler than all the ‘taming’, as for example how sure we are for instance we can communicate with aliens (from astrobiologist view and even nasa has sent communication to aliens) even without meeting them, you cannot make any animal tame to speak like the “stupidest child”

What is more interesting is that the humans brain does not only respond to the “physical” or instinctual world, but very heavily to things like emotions, ideas, notions, thoughts which are the driving force, good and bad, evil and good, there is no “evil” or “good” in the jungle, i think this leaves man in a SINGULAR position, with regards to this notion of heaven, no need bringing chicken, goats e.t.c to it.

I agree - the human brain is possibly the 1st organ that has developed enough to ask questions and have notions of good and evil. it could be be the only thing (jn the universe) as far as we know that can deduce the notion of heaven and hell. but perhaps that then creates a second set of questions: Does the formulation of the notion of heaven imply that such a place exists? and congruently just because a creature are not interested or is incapable of formulation such a place does it then not mean it does not exist?



If its a notion, i cant speak for animals, again why do they need a notion they don't understand? it MUST be preceded by a singular lucid view between good and evil. It's not a deduction, but a choice! Of all the theories i have heard bandied around, the most consistent and long standing theory i have heard is that one chooses. Defining good and evil maybe then your challenge and not "incapable of formulation" of good and evil, that already sounds like an 'excuse' for a little evil.
Meru Holiness
masukuma
#37 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 5:50:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
Much Know wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Much Know wrote:
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven, various parts of the brain that have functions such as motor, reflex, cerebellum e.t.c show that animals do not have “sapience” and the correlating brain activity, in the sections of the brain where it happens for humans. Do not mistake the “begwoook” of a chicken for thinking, even a machine can be made to respond in the same way after a beating, all about messages fired to various muscles from various parts of brain e.t.c, in other words in tychos “simulation”, we can conclude chicken are just like machines in the “video game”, for the use of the character “man”, for entertainment and eating, kuku fry, smile today we can make much more intelligent machines than chicken, and some that do things better than man, and they don’t care about ‘heaven’ for sure, and never will, they are ATHIEST like the chicken, dogs, pigs etc, i dont think tychos "scientist" will resurrect chicken either, he can tell us.

The dullest human being will give a varied communication response for many types of prompts, he will ask for food water e.t.c no animal, notwithstanding the “hundreds of millions of years” it has preexisted man can do that, speak like we do! Even with hearing and sight, the animals cannot outdo a person born deaf, blind and dumb who will find a way to communicate using signs with “people” whom they live with but have never seen or heard; you cannot say therefore it is for lack of “vocal cords” that animals don’t communicate, one or the other would "learn" to use signs to communicate. And as people have a tendency to be unequal say in “intelligence”, music, muscle, the same is seen in animals, among horses there are better runners, more “tamable” horses among horses, elephants e.t.c , sending messages from the animal to the human often appears simpler than all the ‘taming’, as for example how sure we are for instance we can communicate with aliens (from astrobiologist view and even nasa has sent communication to aliens) even without meeting them, you cannot make any animal tame to speak like the “stupidest child”

What is more interesting is that the humans brain does not only respond to the “physical” or instinctual world, but very heavily to things like emotions, ideas, notions, thoughts which are the driving force, good and bad, evil and good, there is no “evil” or “good” in the jungle, i think this leaves man in a SINGULAR position, with regards to this notion of heaven, no need bringing chicken, goats e.t.c to it.

I agree - the human brain is possibly the 1st organ that has developed enough to ask questions and have notions of good and evil. it could be be the only thing (jn the universe) as far as we know that can deduce the notion of heaven and hell. but perhaps that then creates a second set of questions: Does the formulation of the notion of heaven imply that such a place exists? and congruently just because a creature are not interested or is incapable of formulation such a place does it then not mean it does not exist?



If its a notion, i cant speak for animals, again why do they need a notion they don't understand? it MUST be preceded by a singular lucid view between good and evil. It's not a deduction, but a choice! Of all the theories i have heard bandied around, the most consistent and long standing theory i have heard is that one chooses. Defining good and evil maybe then your challenge and not "incapable of formulation" of good and evil, that already sounds like an 'excuse' for a little evil.

is the existence of an afterlife premised on consciousness of it's existence?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
AlphDoti
#38 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 6:16:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Wakanyugi wrote:
Much Know wrote:
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven....

OK, now that I am up off the floor.

I can't say whether chicken are interested in heaven or not, I have never asked them. But let us say they are not. This would put them in good company with some humans - atheists, satanists, some scientists etc - who by their own professing,are equally not interested in heaven. What happens to the rest of your argument then?

But I am a small time chicken farmer and I can confirm one thing that chickens and humans seem to share (this from close observation). Self preservation.

It seems that both chicken and humans would like to stick around. Even those humans who express abiding interest in heaven are not in any hurry to get there.

So, back to Masukuma's point, how different are chicken and we?

Good points @wa-kanyu Applause
Much Know
#39 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 7:32:29 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,554
masukuma wrote:
Much Know wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Much Know wrote:
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven, various parts of the brain that have functions such as motor, reflex, cerebellum e.t.c show that animals do not have “sapience” and the correlating brain activity, in the sections of the brain where it happens for humans. Do not mistake the “begwoook” of a chicken for thinking, even a machine can be made to respond in the same way after a beating, all about messages fired to various muscles from various parts of brain e.t.c, in other words in tychos “simulation”, we can conclude chicken are just like machines in the “video game”, for the use of the character “man”, for entertainment and eating, kuku fry, smile today we can make much more intelligent machines than chicken, and some that do things better than man, and they don’t care about ‘heaven’ for sure, and never will, they are ATHIEST like the chicken, dogs, pigs etc, i dont think tychos "scientist" will resurrect chicken either, he can tell us.

The dullest human being will give a varied communication response for many types of prompts, he will ask for food water e.t.c no animal, notwithstanding the “hundreds of millions of years” it has preexisted man can do that, speak like we do! Even with hearing and sight, the animals cannot outdo a person born deaf, blind and dumb who will find a way to communicate using signs with “people” whom they live with but have never seen or heard; you cannot say therefore it is for lack of “vocal cords” that animals don’t communicate, one or the other would "learn" to use signs to communicate. And as people have a tendency to be unequal say in “intelligence”, music, muscle, the same is seen in animals, among horses there are better runners, more “tamable” horses among horses, elephants e.t.c , sending messages from the animal to the human often appears simpler than all the ‘taming’, as for example how sure we are for instance we can communicate with aliens (from astrobiologist view and even nasa has sent communication to aliens) even without meeting them, you cannot make any animal tame to speak like the “stupidest child”

What is more interesting is that the humans brain does not only respond to the “physical” or instinctual world, but very heavily to things like emotions, ideas, notions, thoughts which are the driving force, good and bad, evil and good, there is no “evil” or “good” in the jungle, i think this leaves man in a SINGULAR position, with regards to this notion of heaven, no need bringing chicken, goats e.t.c to it.

I agree - the human brain is possibly the 1st organ that has developed enough to ask questions and have notions of good and evil. it could be be the only thing (jn the universe) as far as we know that can deduce the notion of heaven and hell. but perhaps that then creates a second set of questions: Does the formulation of the notion of heaven imply that such a place exists? and congruently just because a creature are not interested or is incapable of formulation such a place does it then not mean it does not exist?



If its a notion, i cant speak for animals, again why do they need a notion they don't understand? it MUST be preceded by a singular lucid view between good and evil. It's not a deduction, but a choice! Of all the theories i have heard bandied around, the most consistent and long standing theory i have heard is that one chooses. Defining good and evil maybe then your challenge and not "incapable of formulation" of good and evil, that already sounds like an 'excuse' for a little evil.

is the existence of an afterlife premised on consciousness of it's existence?
Is love/hate e.t.c premised on the consciousness of its existence, does that apply to a psycopath, does he "know" empathy for example, ama yeye ni mnyama tu, does the psycopath not knowing empathy eliminate the conscious existence of empathy, please show me how they look or a youtube video of "life", what is consiousness? Ebu niseme sielewi hii swali kabisa but in tychos 'scientific resurrection', the technical capacity to resurrect lays the premises for resurrection, that's conscious, it presents the scenario where any previous human character can be downloaded, or re-run or reloaded into the simulation, 'Adam and Eve' can be resurrected 'scientifically' as they are "stored" in the memory and are still therefore technically alive, they were certainly candidates for resurrection when they lived, and so consciousness of how the simulation works is the premise for afterlife, automatically making resurrection a pre-existing "fact", irregardless of when it begins. In 'reality', no such "physical" device is known, but definite declarations of the same "spiritual" concepts have been made, making them (IF TRUE), 'conscious declarations' of an afterlife to those who know them as, some go as far as to say they have visited the heavenly places, unfortunately i have no youtube video to paste of this afterlife or any "proof", 'spiritual matters' are not like stones, food, and other physical things, or "subject to science" just as love cannot be measured scientifically yet is a real concept, people are free and the feel what they feel. Freedom for one to have their own spiritual beliefs is for me a very important tenant.
Meru Holiness
Much Know
#40 Posted : Wednesday, June 22, 2016 7:48:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,554
Wakanyugi wrote:
Much Know wrote:
Not to downplay the Islamic view, but surely the brains of animals like chicken have been studied sufficiently to conclude that chickens are not interested in heaven....


OK, now that I am up off the floor.

I can't say whether chicken are interested in heaven or not, I have never asked them. But let us say they are not. This would put them in good company with some humans - atheists, satanists, some scientists etc - who by their own professing,are equally not interested in heaven. What happens to the rest of your argument then?

But I am a small time chicken farmer and I can confirm one thing that chickens and humans seem to share (this from close observation). Self preservation.

It seems that both chicken and humans would like to stick around. Even those humans who express abiding interest in heaven are not in any hurry to get there.

So, back to Masukuma's point, how different are chicken and we?





I remember the story of self preservation from evolution. We shall discuss one day, quite complex an issue. Let me just assure you, the chicken don't care, they don't know you will eat them, they don't know the difference between today and tomorrow, morning and night, they are just "reacting", eat your chicken with a clean conscious Laughing out loudly .
Meru Holiness
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