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Easter fallacy and the elusiveness of Christ
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:KIKItheKING wrote:@Tycho...
In my stay here in wazua I have found you to a very curious person. Full of thirst for knowledge. Always seeking to find HOW and WHY to alot of issues.
All your topics are always thought provoking and healthy for applying REASON on.
On my part... We would fail if we try to apply REASON and common sense to matters religion. Religion is all a about FAITH. The seperation between reason and faith is recent. Let's take it as far back as the Copernicun revolution. Before that, there's ample evidence that the two went together. It's only natural that the two go together. Their parting ways has left us with much damage already ... it's time to reconcile them. And in me, they are reconciled. @tycho is right! it was all nice and dandy when advances in knowledge and reason was coherent to scripture. until information/science revealed a reality that was incoherent with scripture and people started picking sides. That is why thinkers like St Augustine of hippo and St Thomas Aquinas are still quoted today since the philosphical and wordviews were still coherent to the scripture. this has been happening increasingly and we are almost a society that is schizophrenic - consuming fossil fuels but not acknowledging the existence of the source of these fossil fuels. Very happy to drive a car and fuel but rejecting the existence of the source of that fuel. I rarely engage in counter realities but I sometimes float back in time and ask - if Issac Newton was born after Darwin - which side of the debate would he fall? Titan has “Hundreds of Times More” Liquid Hydrocarbons Than Earth Where did they come from? Science,especially physics,has become more philosophical and metaphysical with little to no evidence to back it up. Because of that science has incorporated all and any past,present and future religions and realities as equally valid and void. It is science that is struggling to find a coherent way to move forward. Let's not get lost in the discussions on Crude and the many theories of it (it rains hydorcarbons on Titan). Coal? what about Coal? Quote:Science,especially physics,has become more philosophical and metaphysical with little to no evidence to back it up. Because of that science has incorporated all and any past,present and future religions and realities as equally valid and void. It is science that is struggling to find a coherent way to move forward. the interesting thing about the sciencintific process is that it accepts when it's wrong if you can come up with a better explanation or proof. I wonder if the other side will ever accept that it is wrong on anything. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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masukuma wrote:¿ wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:KIKItheKING wrote:@Tycho...
In my stay here in wazua I have found you to a very curious person. Full of thirst for knowledge. Always seeking to find HOW and WHY to alot of issues.
All your topics are always thought provoking and healthy for applying REASON on.
On my part... We would fail if we try to apply REASON and common sense to matters religion. Religion is all a about FAITH. The seperation between reason and faith is recent. Let's take it as far back as the Copernicun revolution. Before that, there's ample evidence that the two went together. It's only natural that the two go together. Their parting ways has left us with much damage already ... it's time to reconcile them. And in me, they are reconciled. @tycho is right! it was all nice and dandy when advances in knowledge and reason was coherent to scripture. until information/science revealed a reality that was incoherent with scripture and people started picking sides. That is why thinkers like St Augustine of hippo and St Thomas Aquinas are still quoted today since the philosphical and wordviews were still coherent to the scripture. this has been happening increasingly and we are almost a society that is schizophrenic - consuming fossil fuels but not acknowledging the existence of the source of these fossil fuels. Very happy to drive a car and fuel but rejecting the existence of the source of that fuel. I rarely engage in counter realities but I sometimes float back in time and ask - if Issac Newton was born after Darwin - which side of the debate would he fall? Titan has “Hundreds of Times More” Liquid Hydrocarbons Than Earth Where did they come from? Science,especially physics,has become more philosophical and metaphysical with little to no evidence to back it up. Because of that science has incorporated all and any past,present and future religions and realities as equally valid and void. It is science that is struggling to find a coherent way to move forward. Let's not get lost in the discussions on Crude and the many theories of it (it rains hydorcarbons on Titan). Coal? what about Coal? Quote:Science,especially physics,has become more philosophical and metaphysical with little to no evidence to back it up. Because of that science has incorporated all and any past,present and future religions and realities as equally valid and void. It is science that is struggling to find a coherent way to move forward. the interesting thing about the sciencintific process is that it accepts when it's wrong if you can come up with a better explanation or proof. I wonder if the other side will ever accept that it is wrong on anything. It is wrong and right depending on the science of the day.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:It is wrong and right depending on the science of the day. AND IT'S FINE WITH THAT!! THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS it's willing to be corrected unlike some other means of gathering knowledge. they are the only people who say... oh! we were wrong! we thought we had found a cure for cancer in 1917 - but we are wrong... mea culpa! we thought HIV was passed by the mother to child during pregnancy... we were wrong! we have come across some new information that tells us what we believed prior to now was B.S. my bad! we thought there was a planet called vulcan between mercury and the sun... we were wrong. we thought there was a substance called ether that space was made of... we came across some newer information and now we know we were wrong! We had to wait 500 years for the other team to say they were wrong on Galileo..... priss! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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masukuma wrote:¿ wrote:It is wrong and right depending on the science of the day. AND IT'S FINE WITH THAT!! THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS it's willing to be corrected unlike some other means of gathering knowledge. they are the only people who say... oh! we were wrong! we thought we had found a cure for cancer in 1917 - but we are wrong... mea culpa! we thought HIV was passed by the mother to child during pregnancy... we were wrong! we have come across some new information that tells us what we believed prior to now was B.S. my bad! we thought there was a planet called vulcan between mercury and the sun... we were wrong. we thought there was a substance called ether that space was made of... we came across some newer information and now we know we were wrong! We had to wait 500 years for the other team to say they were wrong on Galileo..... priss! Good.Illusions upon illusions. How long will it take for 'reality' to become reality or is it an unnecessary idea in science? http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...osts&t=27898&p=4
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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measure it empirically bring it... science does not engage in guesswork and then fails to tell you they are guessing! all these "reality" discussions are "theories" and they state so. they don't authoritatively tell you that they are the final answer. All that they say is - the math tells us "X". Wewe let maths yako, toa makosa their math and I can bet - they will follow you. Science does not start with a conclusion then attempts to reverse engineer it to fit a certain targeted starting point. That is the beauty of the scientific process.... documented, Repeatable processes and well documented assumptions and finally a conclusion. if you don't agree with the conclusion... then show them where in the processes they went wrong. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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masukuma wrote:measure it empirically bring it... science does not engage in guesswork and then fails to tell you they are guessing! all these "reality" discussions are "theories" and they state so. they don't authoritatively tell you that they are the final answer.All that they say is - the math tells us "X". Wewe let maths yako, toa makosa their math and I can bet - they will follow you. Science does not start with a conclusion then attempts to reverse engineer it to fit a certain targeted starting point. That is the beauty of the scientific process.... documented, Repeatable processes and well documented assumptions and finally a conclusion. if you don't agree with the conclusion... then show them where in the processes they went wrong.  ¿ wrote:Science,especially physics,has become more philosophical and metaphysical with little to no evidence to back it up. Because of that science has incorporated all and any past,present and future religions and realities as equally valid and void. It is science that is struggling to find a coherent way to move forward. Scientific method: Defend the integrity of physicsQuote:This year, debates in physics circles took a worrying turn. Faced with difficulties in applying fundamental theories to the observed Universe, some researchers called for a change in how theoretical physics is done. They began to argue — explicitly — that if a theory is sufficiently elegant and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally, breaking with centuries of philosophical tradition of defining scientific knowledge as empirical. We disagree. As the philosopher of science Karl Popper argued: a theory must be falsifiable to be scientific. Quote:These unprovable hypotheses are quite different from those that relate directly to the real world and that are testable through observations — such as the standard model of particle physics and the existence of dark matter and dark energy. As we see it, theoretical physics risks becoming a no-man's-land between mathematics, physics and philosophy that does not truly meet the requirements of any.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:masukuma wrote:measure it empirically bring it... science does not engage in guesswork and then fails to tell you they are guessing! all these "reality" discussions are "theories" and they state so. they don't authoritatively tell you that they are the final answer.All that they say is - the math tells us "X". Wewe let maths yako, toa makosa their math and I can bet - they will follow you. Science does not start with a conclusion then attempts to reverse engineer it to fit a certain targeted starting point. That is the beauty of the scientific process.... documented, Repeatable processes and well documented assumptions and finally a conclusion. if you don't agree with the conclusion... then show them where in the processes they went wrong. ¿ wrote:Science,especially physics,has become more philosophical and metaphysical with little to no evidence to back it up. Because of that science has incorporated all and any past,present and future religions and realities as equally valid and void. It is science that is struggling to find a coherent way to move forward. Scientific method: Defend the integrity of physicsQuote:This year, debates in physics circles took a worrying turn. Faced with difficulties in applying fundamental theories to the observed Universe, some researchers called for a change in how theoretical physics is done. They began to argue — explicitly — that if a theory is sufficiently elegant and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally, breaking with centuries of philosophical tradition of defining scientific knowledge as empirical. We disagree. As the philosopher of science Karl Popper argued: a theory must be falsifiable to be scientific. Quote:These unprovable hypotheses are quite different from those that relate directly to the real world and that are testable through observations — such as the standard model of particle physics and the existence of dark matter and dark energy. As we see it, theoretical physics risks becoming a no-man's-land between mathematics, physics and philosophy that does not truly meet the requirements of any. 2 things - mathematically sound and testable (replicatable). let me give an example - Testable is pretty much in the realm that physics has nailed... Newtonian physics, Relativity e.t.c. Then we have newer theories where maths is leading. These are not testable yet- the maths is sound. As sound as the math that predicted the Higgs boson! same as the math that taught us about gravitational waves. They are not fragments of imagination in the realm of the writings of jule verne. So.... if it's not testable (yet) I urge you to fault the maths behind it.... these are not guesses.... unlike some claims of beings of pure energy I have heard of. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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masukuma wrote:¿ wrote:masukuma wrote:measure it empirically bring it... science does not engage in guesswork and then fails to tell you they are guessing! all these "reality" discussions are "theories" and they state so. they don't authoritatively tell you that they are the final answer.All that they say is - the math tells us "X". Wewe let maths yako, toa makosa their math and I can bet - they will follow you. Science does not start with a conclusion then attempts to reverse engineer it to fit a certain targeted starting point. That is the beauty of the scientific process.... documented, Repeatable processes and well documented assumptions and finally a conclusion. if you don't agree with the conclusion... then show them where in the processes they went wrong. ¿ wrote:Science,especially physics,has become more philosophical and metaphysical with little to no evidence to back it up. Because of that science has incorporated all and any past,present and future religions and realities as equally valid and void. It is science that is struggling to find a coherent way to move forward. Scientific method: Defend the integrity of physicsQuote:This year, debates in physics circles took a worrying turn. Faced with difficulties in applying fundamental theories to the observed Universe, some researchers called for a change in how theoretical physics is done. They began to argue — explicitly — that if a theory is sufficiently elegant and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally, breaking with centuries of philosophical tradition of defining scientific knowledge as empirical. We disagree. As the philosopher of science Karl Popper argued: a theory must be falsifiable to be scientific. Quote:These unprovable hypotheses are quite different from those that relate directly to the real world and that are testable through observations — such as the standard model of particle physics and the existence of dark matter and dark energy. As we see it, theoretical physics risks becoming a no-man's-land between mathematics, physics and philosophy that does not truly meet the requirements of any. 2 things - mathematically sound and testable (replicatable). let me give an example - Testable is pretty much in the realm that physics has nailed... Newtonian physics, Relativity e.t.c. Then we have newer theories where maths is leading. These are not testable yet- the maths is sound. As sound as the math that predicted the Higgs boson! same as the math that taught us about gravitational waves. They are not fragments of imagination in the realm of the writings of jule verne. So.... if it's not testable (yet) I urge you to fault the maths behind it.... these are not guesses.... unlike some claims of beings of pure energy I have heard of. Elegant.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2011 Posts: 129 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:Around twenty years ago, I put myself on a path and question that alas, is so much alive and pressing. Then, like now, my main issue was how I could be free and alive and optimal.
In the beginning I concluded that the apparent failure of the Gospel in my life was due to poor teachers. So I became a theologian, and more to it, I took the path of the cross with dogged devotion.
Now, many years after the start of my journey I realize that the Gospels are far from good news, and the message of Christ is a reactionary message meant to enslave rather than free.
The center is Christ, as Bonhoeffer put it, the issue is sin. But these two don't reconcile.
Sometimes I wonder whether I should forget about Christ all together, especially given that he never wrote any book and is subject to the whims and character of teachers and prophets.
I'm standing at the last battlefront for my freedom and I have to lose so much of what I've held dear for so long. Doubt is healthy. Asking questions is healthy. All progress has come from doubt in the status quo, leading to good questions. As long as you're going to be thinking anyway, think big
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Speaking of sciences and culpability, I'd like to correct something that I have said that is erroneous. I have stated that some Scripture is erroneous and or enslaving. But the more I have studied and probed and meditated the more light has been shone on my path the more I realize that the assertion isn't true. In any case I have come to realize the holiness of all things - even Laveyan Scripture ...
My biggest lesson as per yesterday night was on 'Plato's chariot'; what it is, and how to ride it well past the eight gates of heaven... And lo, did I realize that each of the eight gates is in fact an entry into a science, and that the seventh gate is entry to the science of sciences. Let me enumerate the gates and sciences.
1. The lowest is the physical science
2. Then social science
3. Psychological science
4. Science of the Chariot
5. Science of the cosmic mind
6. Science of the seer
7.Science of Spirit that binds all sciences together- yoga
8. Science of nothingness
Each thing, and person belongs at least one of the gates, and each gate, its metaphor. Mix up metaphor and conflict and confusion reigns. Address each gate with its key and becomes well. Paradoxically, each gate is within the other and the symbol for all of them is the rainbow. The rainbow is the great reconciler. Christ.
Each gate is also an entry into a cave and womb... Plato's cave. From cave to cave on a chariot. To be born to die, and to die to resurrect and ascend.
Finally, at the seventh gate the chariot dissolves; that's why it's not written that Jesus ascended on one.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:In any case I have come to realize the holiness of all things - even Laveyan Scripture ...
The Satanic Bible?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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¿ wrote:tycho wrote:In any case I have come to realize the holiness of all things - even Laveyan Scripture ...
The Satanic Bible? Yes. It's a Scripture for the first gate knocking on the second.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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tycho wrote:¿ wrote:tycho wrote:In any case I have come to realize the holiness of all things - even Laveyan Scripture ...
The Satanic Bible? Yes. It's a Scripture for the first gate knocking on the second. 
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