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The Capital Gains Tax
DBLyon
#21 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:06:47 AM
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Joined: 5/28/2014
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Location: Nairobi
Does anyone have the wording of the Finance Bill? What is the definition of 'property' in the clause? In the BD they only mentioned minerals and real estate, and not stocks.

And 5% doesn't seem too bad...I originally had visions of 30%.
When you live for others' opinions, you are dead.

- Carlos Slim Helu
Mainat
#22 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:18:36 AM
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Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
Yes-no mention of stocks, Although the original law targeted stocks. Also note that its only on 20%+ gains
Sehemu ndio nyumba
DBLyon
#23 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:41:03 AM
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Joined: 5/28/2014
Posts: 149
Location: Nairobi
maka wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
I also wonder who will monitor the millions of transactions when you bought and when you sold and your gains...


That is solely the bourse,s mandate....


Yes, indeed. I'm sure all would pay this tax, if it is effected; both Wanjiku and fund managers. I think it would simply be a formula same as the brokerage et al fees.
When you live for others' opinions, you are dead.

- Carlos Slim Helu
DBLyon
#24 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 9:45:22 AM
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Joined: 5/28/2014
Posts: 149
Location: Nairobi
And a different perspective - while there are people who claim to avoid certain investments because of taxes such as these, the fact is that when you trade you make a profit. The taxation means you make 95% of what you would have made. Is that such a disaster? Would you rather not trade and make 0% of your gains? Are there other investments out there that the people would opt for without taxes?
When you live for others' opinions, you are dead.

- Carlos Slim Helu
mwenza
#25 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 10:49:35 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2009
Posts: 2,863
DBLyon wrote:
And a different perspective - while there are people who claim to avoid certain investments because of taxes such as these, the fact is that when you trade you make a profit. The taxation means you make 95% of what you would have made. Is that such a disaster? Would you rather not trade and make 0% of your gains? Are there other investments out there that the people would opt for without taxes?


Not true.
IF YOU EXPECT ME TO POST ANYTHING POSITIVE ABOUT ASENO, YOU MAY AS WELL SIT ON A PIN
VituVingiSana
#26 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 12:27:06 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,209
Location: Nairobi
mwenza wrote:
DBLyon wrote:
And a different perspective - while there are people who claim to avoid certain investments because of taxes such as these, the fact is that when you trade you make a profit. The taxation means you make 95% of what you would have made. Is that such a disaster? Would you rather not trade and make 0% of your gains? Are there other investments out there that the people would opt for without taxes?


Not true.
Thank you! Cost of capital/loans, trading costs, office expenses [internet, phone calls] and potential losses ask @obiero about KQ or @guru about HAFR to @VVS about Olympia
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Gordon Gekko
#27 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:09:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 3,760
DBLyon wrote:
Does anyone have the wording of the Finance Bill? What is the definition of 'property' in the clause? In the BD they only mentioned minerals and real estate, and not stocks.

And 5% doesn't seem too bad...I originally had visions of 30%.

Also on the wording, what is a gain? Is it the difference between the price you bought it at and the price you sold it at, or is it the selling price?
kazee
#28 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:21:48 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/18/2006
Posts: 131
So if i buy land for 1m, use 3m to develop it and sell the property for 8m, do i pay 5% on (8m-1m)=7m or what? Coz the difference is not all profit, 3m was used to develop the empty land.

Tax accountants?
jawgey
#29 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 3:19:13 PM
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Joined: 1/13/2014
Posts: 394
Location: Denmark
kazee wrote:
So if i buy land for 1m, use 3m to develop it and sell the property for 8m, do i pay 5% on (8m-1m)=7m or what? Coz the difference is not all profit, 3m was used to develop the empty land.

Tax accountants?


Development of land is a capital expenditure so there's no way KRA will allow that expense.

you will only be able to claim capital allowances when declaring your income. e.g. rental income.

otherwise capital gains will apply to the (8-1)=7m which is the effective gain doesn't matter if there are legal fees, valuation fees et al involved.
Seeing is believing
DBLyon
#30 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 6:01:56 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/28/2014
Posts: 149
Location: Nairobi
mwenza wrote:
DBLyon wrote:
And a different perspective - while there are people who claim to avoid certain investments because of taxes such as these, the fact is that when you trade you make a profit. The taxation means you make 95% of what you would have made. Is that such a disaster? Would you rather not trade and make 0% of your gains? Are there other investments out there that the people would opt for without taxes?


Not true.


By this I mean that if you decide to sell your land (for example) you will be doing it at a profit. I don't expect one to be trading at a loss (at least where there is a choice). If I sell land and expect to make a profit of 10M, I still get 9.5M after paying the tax of 500k. The 9.5M is better than the zero gain if the tax is what deters me.

And by profit I expect one has taken into account all expenses. Duh...d'oh!
When you live for others' opinions, you are dead.

- Carlos Slim Helu
newfarer
#31 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 6:29:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
jawgey wrote:
kazee wrote:
So if i buy land for 1m, use 3m to develop it and sell the property for 8m, do i pay 5% on (8m-1m)=7m or what? Coz the difference is not all profit, 3m was used to develop the empty land.

Tax accountants?


Development of land is a capital expenditure so there's no way KRA will allow that expense.

you will only be able to claim capital allowances when declaring your income. e.g. rental income.

otherwise capital gains will apply to the (8-1)=7m which is the effective gain doesn't matter if there are legal fees, valuation fees et al involved.

this is madness
punda amecheka
dunkang
#32 Posted : Thursday, August 28, 2014 8:50:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
Bye Bye NSE.

This will definitely make everything in a Kenyan's life more expensive.
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

hisah
#33 Posted : Friday, August 29, 2014 3:08:10 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
Capital gains tax to hit housing most

What will be the net effect to HF, HAFR as well other real estate players and that mortgage income pie for lenders?

CGT on equities is coming too. IMF ECF conditions will be implemented against all odds Sad

1. VAT across board - check (tho KQ has been given a reprieve, but what about agribusiness?)

2. NSE dumutualization - check (IPO floats 9/9/2014)

3. CGT implementation - check (Mining and real estate implemented, pending equities)

Higher tax rates generally slump an economy and the current gok has decided step on the gas with tax hikes to shore up its revenues. The biggest signal will be mobile money decline. When that happens, the econ will contract faster than expected!

The other reason I got so bearish the KES was this article - http://ow.ly/AQP1X

$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
edwing
#34 Posted : Friday, August 29, 2014 5:05:30 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 1/31/2010
Posts: 23
Location: Nairobi
Why are we having this discussion. Companies trading in the NSE do pay corporate tax on their gains currently for all profits. Individuals don't. KRA should have a look at the tax accounts of people in this page some don't have a clue how tax is paid.
VituVingiSana
#35 Posted : Friday, August 29, 2014 11:10:31 PM
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Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,209
Location: Nairobi
edwing wrote:
Why are we having this discussion. Companies trading in the NSE do pay corporate tax on their gains currently for all profits. Individuals don't. KRA should have a look at the tax accounts of people in this page some don't have a clue how tax is paid.
Double Taxation. A travesty.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
hisah
#36 Posted : Tuesday, September 09, 2014 5:45:41 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
CGT on shares now clarified. 5% tax. Seems wazuans don't fancy The East African paper.

http://www.theeastafrica.../-/d45jlfz/-/index.html

As part of those IMF ECFs (conditions) not surprised to see all these chaos. VAT revision, mobi cash excise duty etc. Arbitrary taxation here and there as tax regime becomes aggresive... What I see coming is endless court cases by KRA as tax evasion becomes rife due to an aggressive tax regime. Capital flight will flow towards mauritius and sychelles as a legal tax evasion option.

**Capital is neither patriotic nor loyal. Hot money will flow out especially on bonds and real estate where sizable amounts are flipped**

So will wanjikus equities gain of 100/- be subject to CGT? If so, how do you convince wanjiku to stick or return to the share market?

Paying tax is not the issue, it's the implementation aggression that kills it.
$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
murchr
#37 Posted : Tuesday, September 09, 2014 5:49:42 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
hisah wrote:
CGT on shares now clarified. 5% tax. Seems wazuans don't fancy The East African paper.

http://www.theeastafrica.../-/d45jlfz/-/index.html

As part of those IMF ECFs (conditions) not surprised to see all these chaos. VAT revision, mobi cash excise duty etc. Arbitrary taxation here and there as tax regime becomes aggresive... What I see coming is endless court cases by KRA as tax evasion becomes rife due to an aggressive tax regime. Capital flight will flow towards mauritius and sychelles as a legal tax evasion option.

**Capital is neither patriotic nor loyal. Hot money will flow out especially on bonds and real estate where sizable amounts are flipped**

So will wanjikus equities gain of 100/- be subject to CGT? If so, how do you convince wanjiku to stick or return to the share market?

Paying tax is not the issue, it's the implementation aggression that kills it.


5% is just too high, considering this is not the only tax to be applied.

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
sparkly
#38 Posted : Tuesday, September 09, 2014 6:43:22 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
murchr wrote:
hisah wrote:
CGT on shares now clarified. 5% tax. Seems wazuans don't fancy The East African paper.

http://www.theeastafrica.../-/d45jlfz/-/index.html

As part of those IMF ECFs (conditions) not surprised to see all these chaos. VAT revision, mobi cash excise duty etc. Arbitrary taxation here and there as tax regime becomes aggresive... What I see coming is endless court cases by KRA as tax evasion becomes rife due to an aggressive tax regime. Capital flight will flow towards mauritius and sychelles as a legal tax evasion option.

**Capital is neither patriotic nor loyal. Hot money will flow out especially on bonds and real estate where sizable amounts are flipped**

So will wanjikus equities gain of 100/- be subject to CGT? If so, how do you convince wanjiku to stick or return to the share market?

Paying tax is not the issue, it's the implementation aggression that kills it.


5% is just too high, considering this is not the only tax to be applied.



5% tax on the "gain" is very low for a non tax haven country. Expect the rate to go up next year or two.
Life is short. Live passionately.
a4architect.com
#39 Posted : Tuesday, September 09, 2014 8:47:32 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
compared to south africa's at 10%, kenya's 5% is not high. The south african capital gains tax has actually aided the south african real estate industry by slowing down on speculation,hence lower housing costs.
http://southafrica.anglo...taxes/capital-gains-tax/
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Mainat
#40 Posted : Tuesday, September 09, 2014 8:53:20 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
I would be surprised if our CGT doesn't match our neighbours i.e. 20-30% before 2017.
We are like frogs in a sufuria. Temperature is now set at 5 degrees
Sehemu ndio nyumba
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