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December 25th: Who’s birthday is it?
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:tycho wrote:The answer depends on where you are. And whether you are in motion or not. We live in a world of symbols, yet can a symbol have a singular meaning? Laws are interpreted, yet they are an advanced form of symbology. Every thing is a symbol. You are a symbol. The world beyond the thing has no symbols. We may try to magnify our symbols but unless we be silent as Wittgenstein asked, then there'll be nothing to be said. Interestingly, this 25 Dec. matter, in being associated with Christ, is associated with the deepest craving of Man that the sun should never set. I remember this account of Saint Paul being knowledgeable on Mithraism courtesy of his Roman ways. And him being the philosopher of the time couldn't escape the light, of the sun, shining specifically on him. For he saw the depths of Man, even though like a shattered glass, darkness. He could now speak to all humanity with boldness and authority. Hence opened the gates to the association of Mithraic tradition with the Church fathers. For me I see the symbology of Easter being linked to the birth of Christ in a most interesting fashion. Coming out of the tomb is like being born of a rock. To conquer the bull of passion you must look and understand the mystery of the sun, ancient of days. Though the seasons come and go, birth never ends. So life is eternal. Hence Christ, the Savior of the world is born and reborn. Hello Tycho, All may be fine and well until I disagree that Paul was more conversant with Judaism, most conversant with Judaism, being a pharisee and the son of a pharisee. No. I have no dispute with that. So all is fine with me. Why then shouldn't you revise your assertion to be in harmony with that characteristic? Because when this light, of the sun, allegedly shone on him, he had no knowledge of Sun worship, and did not practice it or endorse it so as to be visited of it. Hence 'endorsing' sun worship on the singular base of Paul, the Roman, the individual, is not consistent and therefore crumbles. I won't do so. Because the exclusivity of knowledge that you are positing can't be shown to be true, or even valid. But Paul also being of Roman citizenship offers positive evidence to my argument. Naturally, as you would expect, I am saddened by your refusal. Because earlier you had acknowledged he had other beliefs and religion notwithstanding his citizenship as shown in his ID card. Is that not valid and true? Kindly go over my posts again.
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/8/2010 Posts: 281
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sky5 wrote:sky5 wrote:Since it is evidently, a well-known historical, religious and theological fact that Jesus, The Christ, was not born on December 25th. Then, the idea of celebrating His birthday on December 25th is unbiblical, misplaced and erroneous.
So who’s birthday is celebrated on December 25th? Or when was Jesus actually born?
December 25th or Christmas celebration came from the Roman Church, who inherited it from Roman pagans. But where did the pagans get it from? The celebration of Christmas is a custom, practice or tradition inherited from ancient Babylon. The original Babylon (tower of Babel) was built Nimrod, who started the first great apostasy from which all false and fake religious systems originated. Nimrod married his mother, Semiramis. After his death, the mother propagated an evil doctrine of reincarnation of Nimrod’s spirit. She claimed she conceived Tammuz, without a man, through the spirit of Nimrod. Incidentally, Tammuz was born on December 25th during the winter solstice. So, Semiramis son, Tammuz became a ‘god’ in the eyes of the people. The Christmas tree and the yule log used today, were first used to celebrate the birthday of Tammuz in ancient Babylon. December 25th was the last day of a week-long Babylonian feast, saturnalia, celebrated in honor of deity Saturn. Through her scheming, Semiramis claimed that Nimrod sprang back to life in form of an evergreen tree. On each anniversary of his death, she claimed he would visit and leave gifts on it. This is the origin of the Christmas tree. Later, Semiramis, became the queen of heaven and her son Tammuz, ‘the divine son of heaven’, a kind of a false Messiah, the son of Baal, the Sun-god. This is the origin of the idolatrous “Mother and Child” – Madonna worship which spread over the world. In Egypt ( Iris and Osiris/Horus);In Asia (Cybele and Deoius); In Rome (Fortuna and Jupiter); In Greece (Ceres and Plutus); Other manes applied to Semiramis; Diana, Madonna, Venus, Aphrodite, Artemis, Athena, Gaea, Hera, Demeter, Terra… Therefore, Christmas is an ancient Babylonian holiday, which has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ. If any Christian wanted to genuinely celebrate Jesus’s birthday (the exact date is unknown), they would do it sometime in the month of September! The wide-spread worship of Mary by Roman Church, as ‘mother of God’ and the doctrine of immaculate conception is a continuation of ancient Babylonian idolatry founded by Semiramis, the mother-wife of Nimrod. Thus, the ancient “Chaldean mysteries”, have been handed down through Roman Church, and from there into the Protestant denominations and to all of us today. The Plain Truth About Christmas The story of Nimrod, his mother/wife Semiramis and their son Tammuz is in the book of Genesis. Compiling facts from the bible and historical accounts of the ancient Babylon and pagan worship paint a sad picture of how misleading Christianity can get. The lies have been shamelessly propagated by the Roman Catholic for millenniums. Some of these contradictions are so plain that at times you wonder what kind of bibles they read. For instance, Mary ‘mother of God’ is glorified by Catholics as the “ the queen of heaven” while that reference is plainly denounced in the bible: Jeremiah 7:18 –‘The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger’. Jeremiah 44:17–25-‘But we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our officials, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. ……And Jeremiah said to the people ‘22 The LORD could no longer bear your evil deeds and the abominations that you committed. Therefore your land has become desolation and a waste and a curse, without inhabitant, as it is this day. 23 It is because you made offerings and because you sinned against the LORD and did not obey the voice of the LORD or walk in his law and in his statutes and in his testimonies that this disaster has happened to you, as at this day.”
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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what or who will you be celebrating on 25th? That's the big question. That people sat down and came up with this date or the other one used by Orthodox is neither here nor there. Let Christians celebrate the birth of the saviour. My ony beef is that we celebrate the miracle of his conception and birth more than his redemption at easter
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Lolest! wrote:what or who will you be celebrating on 25th? That's the big question. That people sat down and came up with this date or the other one used by Orthodox is neither here nor there. Let Christians celebrate the birth of the saviour. My ony beef is that we celebrate the miracle of his conception and birth more than his redemption at easter @Lolest you're right the issue is not celebrating, but who was born on 25th Dec. I agree that you know and I know that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was not born on 25th. If we knew his exact birth date, why should we not commemorate? Now, please don't spin this around, because in answering the question, we are not limiting ourselves to our cousins and brothers... but also we are interested in knowing exactly who was being celebrated on this day before people alleged it to be Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). Let us be focused, we need to remind ourselves that this discussion is NOT anti-Christian. We love ALL people from all denominations. This is just a simple case of the truth must always be preached as this is God's law or will according to commandment number 3 and 9. People have resorted to lying, even in church, lying about the day, lying about Santa Claus, lying to children, lying to everybody! They have broken almost all the laws including the 3rd and the 9th below according to Exodus 20:1-17 Commandment #3: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God In vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Commandment #9: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.It is amazing how correct Jesus Christ himself was when he mentione in Mark 7:6-9 which says: ' Jesus answered them, "How right Isaiah was when he prophesied about you! You are hypocrites, just as he wrote: 'These people, says God, honor me with their words, but their heart is really far away from me. It is no use for them to worship me, because they teach human rules as though they were my laws!' “You put aside God's command and obey human teachings." And Jesus continued, "You have a clever way of rejecting God's law in order to uphold your own teaching." See another extract from the Catholic Encyclopaedia Volume 4 page 153 which confirms the deletion of the second Commandment and the change of the fourth, deleted to accommodate idolatry in Church. " The church, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath of the seventh day of the week to the first made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day." So in the popular Papal system, the 2nd Commandment was deleted. All the other remaining Commands were shifted along one step. And the Tenth Commandment is split into two to get back to total Ten Commandments. Subhanallah!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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There is no rule compelling Christians to celebrate Christmas. So that scripture quoted from the gospels that you do not believe in is not helpful. Then you went into a spin, catholicism, sabbaths, and alll....let's not go there. The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. Christmas we celebrate the miraculous birth of Jesus.
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/25/2013 Posts: 552 Location: Asgard
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iller wrote:I read somewhere that Krishna, Buddha and Jesus share the same birthday. So which religion jacked the other? let me add to my invisible post, apparently Zeus was also born on 25th Dec according to the Greek mythologies. Good thing I was wearing my invisible goggles and I was able to find my invisible post
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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So basically Christians celebrate Christmas on 25th December only for the sake of appeasing PAGANS??  Something's a miss!  Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:tycho wrote:The answer depends on where you are. And whether you are in motion or not. We live in a world of symbols, yet can a symbol have a singular meaning? Laws are interpreted, yet they are an advanced form of symbology. Every thing is a symbol. You are a symbol. The world beyond the thing has no symbols. We may try to magnify our symbols but unless we be silent as Wittgenstein asked, then there'll be nothing to be said. Interestingly, this 25 Dec. matter, in being associated with Christ, is associated with the deepest craving of Man that the sun should never set. I remember this account of Saint Paul being knowledgeable on Mithraism courtesy of his Roman ways. And him being the philosopher of the time couldn't escape the light, of the sun, shining specifically on him. For he saw the depths of Man, even though like a shattered glass, darkness. He could now speak to all humanity with boldness and authority. Hence opened the gates to the association of Mithraic tradition with the Church fathers. For me I see the symbology of Easter being linked to the birth of Christ in a most interesting fashion. Coming out of the tomb is like being born of a rock. To conquer the bull of passion you must look and understand the mystery of the sun, ancient of days. Though the seasons come and go, birth never ends. So life is eternal. Hence Christ, the Savior of the world is born and reborn. Hello Tycho, All may be fine and well until I disagree that Paul was more conversant with Judaism, most conversant with Judaism, being a pharisee and the son of a pharisee. No. I have no dispute with that. So all is fine with me. Why then shouldn't you revise your assertion to be in harmony with that characteristic? Because when this light, of the sun, allegedly shone on him, he had no knowledge of Sun worship, and did not practice it or endorse it so as to be visited of it. Hence 'endorsing' sun worship on the singular base of Paul, the Roman, the individual, is not consistent and therefore crumbles. I won't do so. Because the exclusivity of knowledge that you are positing can't be shown to be true, or even valid. But Paul also being of Roman citizenship offers positive evidence to my argument. Naturally, as you would expect, I am saddened by your refusal. Because earlier you had acknowledged he had other beliefs and religion notwithstanding his citizenship as shown in his ID card. Is that not valid and true? Kindly go over my posts again. It's ok. I was still going to insist on not only the exclusivity of knowledge but also 'separateness'.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Lolest! wrote:There is no rule compelling Christians to celebrate Christmas. So that scripture quoted from the gospels that you do not believe in is not helpful. Then you went into a spin, catholicism, sabbaths, and alll....let's not go there. The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. Christmas we celebrate the miraculous birth of Jesus.  Well said!!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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@Lolest and @McReggae what is the truth behind 25th Dec. Can you give us the facts? We do not see any historical or religious evidence to show that Jesus Christ (peace be upong him) was born on Dec 25. Rather, other evidence indicates around April or May or Jun. That destroys the theory you're following above. Which means that you're just following blindly, without question, your culture which you were brought up, which does not permit you to discover by yourself. IMPORTANT: I'm staying focused and I'm addressing the question asked by the tile of this thread "December 25th: Whose birthday is it?". From my own experience and studying, I discovered that there are known to be about 13 pagan gods goddess were born on Dec 25.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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so? @alphdoti? I read those theories when I was a prima kid. Let's say they were celebrating a god called alphdoti whose father was mohamed. Then Christians back then decided to use the same date to mark the birth of Jesus. Then? Alphdoti today isnt known. He disappeared after his followers were converted. That they used the days designated for aphdot is irrelevant. The birtday of Jesus is not known. Let it be celebrated.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Lolest! wrote:so? @alphdoti? I read those theories when I was a prima kid. Let's say they were celebrating a god called alphdoti whose father was mohamed. Then Christians back then decided to use the same date to mark the birth of Jesus. Then? Alphdoti today isnt known. He disappeared after his followers were converted. That they used the days designated for aphdot is irrelevant. The birtday of Jesus is not known. Let it be celebrated. If you realize, nobody says you should stop celebrating. What is being addressed is the truth behind 25th Dec. The title of the thread; who was born on 25th Dec. Somebody said his cousin, nobody objected. Some of us said pagan gods, which eventually led to them changing and alegging that it was Jesus Christ (pbuh). If you want to answer the question asked by the thread answer, if you don't want, then no problem, continue celebrating this day, but we're telling you that is not the date Jesus was born. If you have facts to refute this, please give us. This is a dialogue. Not meant to attack anyone, it is just for people to learn from each other.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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wewe doti, you say we ar following blindly and then go on to say you aren't saying it's wrong or you aren't attcking anyone? Dialogue after typing that? Cool!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:Lolest! wrote:so? @alphdoti? I read those theories when I was a prima kid. Let's say they were celebrating a god called alphdoti whose father was mohamed. Then Christians back then decided to use the same date to mark the birth of Jesus. Then? Alphdoti today isnt known. He disappeared after his followers were converted. That they used the days designated for aphdot is irrelevant. The birtday of Jesus is not known. Let it be celebrated. If you realize, nobody says you should stop celebrating. What is being addressed is the truth behind 25th Dec. The title of the thread; who was born on 25th Dec. Somebody said his cousin, nobody objected. Some of us said pagan gods, which eventually led to them changing and alegging that it was Jesus Christ (pbuh). If you want to answer the question asked by the thread answer, if you don't want, then no problem, continue celebrating this day, but we're telling you that is not the date Jesus was born. If you have facts to refute this, please give us. This is a dialogue. Not meant to attack anyone, it is just for people to learn from each other. You also can't with certainty that he wasn't born on 25th Dec so what's the beef, there are only 365 days in a year so sharing a birthday is surely the order of things!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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McReggae wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Lolest! wrote:so? @alphdoti? I read those theories when I was a prima kid. Let's say they were celebrating a god called alphdoti whose father was mohamed. Then Christians back then decided to use the same date to mark the birth of Jesus. Then? Alphdoti today isnt known. He disappeared after his followers were converted. That they used the days designated for aphdot is irrelevant. The birtday of Jesus is not known. Let it be celebrated. If you realize, nobody says you should stop celebrating. What is being addressed is the truth behind 25th Dec. The title of the thread; who was born on 25th Dec. Somebody said his cousin, nobody objected. Some of us said pagan gods, which eventually led to them changing and alegging that it was Jesus Christ (pbuh). If you want to answer the question asked by the thread answer, if you don't want, then no problem, continue celebrating this day, but we're telling you that is not the date Jesus was born. If you have facts to refute this, please give us. This is a dialogue. Not meant to attack anyone, it is just for people to learn from each other. You also can't with certainty that he wasn't born on 25th Dec so what's the beef, there are only 365 days in a year so sharing a birthday is surely the order of things!!!! @sky5 already told you that "since it is evidently, a well-known historical, religious and theological fact that Jesus, The Christ, was not born on December 25th. Then, the idea of celebrating His birthday on December 25th is unbiblical, misplaced and erroneous." Why do we say that? You see according to you, are there not hundreds or thousand of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the old testament? Out of the thousand prophesies, can you please give me just ONE songle prophesy where Jesus is mentioned by name? The name 'Messiah' translated 'Christ' is not a name but a title. Is there a single prophesy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be Jesus, and that his mother will be Mary, and that his supposed father will be Joseph the carpenter; that he will be born in teh reign of Herod the King? No! Of course no! There is no such details. Then how can you conclude that those thousand prophecies refer to Jesus? So you realise that prophecies are word pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. Whan that thing actually comes to pass, we see vividly these prophecies the fulfilment of what had been predicted in the past. So what you actually do is that you deduce, you reason, you put two and two together. So if this is what you have to do with a 'thousand' prophecies to justify your claim with regards to the genuineness of Jesus, why should we not adopt the very system for disaproving the day 25 Dec as not being his birthday? To me this is a fair proposition, a reasonable way of dealing with the problem. And we have listed many pointers to show that Jesus Christ was not born on 25 Dec.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/25/2012 Posts: 1,624 Location: Langley
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Gestation period for human (Virgins) is 3-6 months. If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Who cares? Celebrate bwana!! don't get pedantic about it!! Even those other calendars are man made... Everyone decided to have a calendar based on something to have some symmetry and order in our almost insignificant lives to the fate of the universe on the surface of this rock speeding across the boundless universe! some based it off the moon , others the sun and other a combination of sun and moon. But they are all man made contraptions to have some kind of order. It really doesn't matter if Jesus was born on 25th... it actually doesn't matter if he was born at all! the reality is HE IS CELEBRATED AND BELIEVED BY MANY PEOPLE. So don't focus your energies on the actualities of these holidays... these holidays were created to tame people who had other holidays in their stead so... RELAX... Say Merry Christmas... it comes once a year and move on! check this out... even if you don't celebrate it... OTHERS WILL! you will be bombarded with messages in your whatsapp groups, your sms, people will call you and you will resent it. Christmas music will play and even you may be accosted by some random thin black guy in an oversized red suit with comical white hair ringing a bell! And you know why it's also going to be significant? you will not go to the supermarket and find it open. in other words -whether you accept it or not, whether you like it or not, whether history is right or wrong.... the reality is that CHRISTMAS is here and it's bigger than any of us. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/14/2006 Posts: 1,311
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masukuma wrote:Who cares? Celebrate bwana!! don't get pedantic about it!! Even those other calendars are man made... Everyone decided to have a calendar based on something to have some symmetry and order in our almost insignificant lives to the fate of the universe on the surface of this rock speeding across the boundless universe! some based it off the moon , others the sun and other a combination of sun and moon. But they are all man made contraptions to have some kind of order. It really doesn't matter if Jesus was born on 25th... it actually doesn't matter if he was born at all! the reality is HE IS CELEBRATED AND BELIEVED BY MANY PEOPLE. So don't focus your energies on the actualities of these holidays... these holidays were created to tame people who had other holidays in their stead so... RELAX... Say Merry Christmas... it comes once a year and move on! check this out... even if you don't celebrate it... OTHERS WILL! you will be bombarded with messages in your whatsapp groups, your sms, people will call you and you will resent it. Christmas music will play and even you may be accosted by some random thin black guy in an oversized red suit with comical white hair ringing a bell! And you know why it's also going to be significant? you will not go to the supermarket and find it open. in other words -whether you accept it or not, whether you like it or not, whether history is right or wrong.... the reality is that CHRISTMAS is here and it's bigger than any of us. Well said @Masukuma.
And we are celebrating 2015 years AD ..... After His death. Whoever does not like it, can go ahead have his own calendar, but the fact remains that the world systems are based on events related to his life in the world. The birth and death of Christ. That is why the world celebrates these events everywhere.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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masukuma wrote:Who cares? Celebrate bwana!! don't get pedantic about it!! Even those other calendars are man made... Everyone decided to have a calendar based on something to have some symmetry and order in our almost insignificant lives to the fate of the universe on the surface of this rock speeding across the boundless universe! some based it off the moon , others the sun and other a combination of sun and moon. But they are all man made contraptions to have some kind of order. It really doesn't matter if Jesus was born on 25th... it actually doesn't matter if he was born at all! the reality is HE IS CELEBRATED AND BELIEVED BY MANY PEOPLE. So don't focus your energies on the actualities of these holidays... these holidays were created to tame people who had other holidays in their stead so... RELAX... Say Merry Christmas... it comes once a year and move on! check this out... even if you don't celebrate it... OTHERS WILL! you will be bombarded with messages in your whatsapp groups, your sms, people will call you and you will resent it. Christmas music will play and even you may be accosted by some random thin black guy in an oversized red suit with comical white hair ringing a bell! And you know why it's also going to be significant? you will not go to the supermarket and find it open. in other words -whether you accept it or not, whether you like it or not, whether history is right or wrong.... the reality is that CHRISTMAS is here and it's bigger than any of us. Masukuma. With this kind of sensible and logical thinking, how come you are not an atheist? I find myself agreeing with most of your observations on religion but it surprises me that you still call yourself a believer. This is the kind of statement i would expect from an atheist. Come out of the closet already, don't be afraid of the stigma. Hahaha 😊😊😊😊
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Liv wrote:masukuma wrote:Who cares? Celebrate bwana!! don't get pedantic about it!! Even those other calendars are man made... Everyone decided to have a calendar based on something to have some symmetry and order in our almost insignificant lives to the fate of the universe on the surface of this rock speeding across the boundless universe! some based it off the moon , others the sun and other a combination of sun and moon. But they are all man made contraptions to have some kind of order. It really doesn't matter if Jesus was born on 25th... it actually doesn't matter if he was born at all! the reality is HE IS CELEBRATED AND BELIEVED BY MANY PEOPLE. So don't focus your energies on the actualities of these holidays... these holidays were created to tame people who had other holidays in their stead so... RELAX... Say Merry Christmas... it comes once a year and move on! check this out... even if you don't celebrate it... OTHERS WILL! you will be bombarded with messages in your whatsapp groups, your sms, people will call you and you will resent it. Christmas music will play and even you may be accosted by some random thin black guy in an oversized red suit with comical white hair ringing a bell! And you know why it's also going to be significant? you will not go to the supermarket and find it open. in other words -whether you accept it or not, whether you like it or not, whether history is right or wrong.... the reality is that CHRISTMAS is here and it's bigger than any of us. Well said @Masukuma.
And we are celebrating 2015 years AD ..... After His death. Whoever does not like it, can go ahead have his own calendar, but the fact remains that the world systems are based on events related to his life in the world. The birth and death of Christ. That is why the world celebrates these events everywhere. All we are saying is that this celebration is PAGAN tradition. Jesus Christ p.b.u.h was not born on 25th Dec, but someone else was. Open up your mind and find out. But if you are afraid to use your God given power of reasoning, and can't think on your own apart from relying on what you inherited from your forefathers, then that's okay. Peace!
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