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MaichBlack
#21 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:56:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,467
One more thing, velocity of money is a factor of how often money is spent not exchanged! If we MPesa each other back and forth, the overall effect on the velocity is zero. When you spend money - exchange your money for goods or services - then that impacts on the velocity.

Does MPesa make people spend money which would otherwise have been tacked away under a matress?

The formula for calculating velocity of money is

Vt = nT / M

where

Vt is the velocity of money for all transactions.
nT is the nominal value of aggregate transactions.
M is the total amount of money in circulation on average in the economy.

What we need to understand here is that nT represents actual business transactions where money is exchanged for goods and services NOT money being exchanged/transfered between two parties.

The whole point of velocity of money is to compare situations where people have money but don't spend it and where people have the same amount of money and actually spend it - not how fast money is transferred from one point to the other.

So again I ask, does MPesa make people spend money they would otherwise have not spent??? And if it does, to what exent? The MPesa driven expenditure (if any) forms what percentage of total expenditure?
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
mkeiy
#22 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:06:50 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/27/2012
Posts: 851
Location: Nairobi
MaichBlack wrote:
One more thing, velocity of money is a factor of how often money is spent not exchanged! If we MPesa each other back and forth, the overall effect on the velocity is zero. When you spend money - exchange your money for goods or services - then that impacts on the velocity.

Does MPesa make people spend money which would otherwise have been tacked away under a matress?

The formula for calculating velocity of money is

Vt = nT / M

where

Vt is the velocity of money for all transactions.
nT is the nominal value of aggregate transactions.
M is the total amount of money in circulation on average in the economy.

What we need to understand here is that nT represents actual business transactions where money is exchanged for goods and services NOT money being exchanged/transfered between two parties.

The whole point of velocity of money is to compare situations where people have money but don't spend it and where people have the same amount of money and actually spend it - not how fast money is transferred from one point to the other.

So again I ask, does MPesa make people spend money they would otherwise have not spent??? And if it does, to what exent? The MPesa driven expenditure (if any) forms what percentage of total expenditure?


@Maich, what you have above is true but not the WHOLE truth. Theories and formulas are tools meant to explain/understand the dynamics. They are NOT the dynamics. What answers the question of whether Mpesa to SOME extend contributes towards inflation,is, REAL life experience. Not theory/formula. How many times have scientists changed their views? New scientific reports negating the previous ones? Properties of a matter NEVER changes,but the theories[explanations] do.
So YES,Mpesa to some extend fuel inflation. Inflation is inflation no matter the percentage.
In my line of business,i deal with cash. I have customers from far n wide. A customer comes from let say Nakuru to buy items. They already know the price but they also know prices might have gone up. In this instance, the prices HAVEN'T gone up. We negotiate, i give them a higher quotation. They don't have the extra money. But there is MPESA. They call Nakuru n in a few minutes, the EXTRA money is availed via Mpesa. When Mpesa is down, that's not possible. When its down, i sell the normal price.
On your other qn, do people spend money they would otherwise not have spent just coz it they had Mpesa, the ans is a screaming YEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! From my experience and the guys around,not theory. To blame inflation wholly on Mpesa would be idiotic, just like believing fuel prices caused it. Many many factors causes inflation.
mukiha
#23 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:10:21 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
selah wrote:
I haven't read the article but it reminds me of a Kiambu police officer who blamed increased carjacking incidents on smooth roads...its as if he wanted the road to be filled with potholes to contain carjacking.



Or those who claim that mobile phones have made people dishonest!
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
muganda
#24 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:44:50 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
On a more pleasant note, @Maichblack introduces psychology which for a fact affects all things human.

So from this purview in Kenya: smile
Yes, more carjackings or buglaries would take place if smooth/quick getaway is assured
Yes, it should take a normal child longer to go through 8 pizza slices as opposed to 4 - the eight slices would seem to make child fuller earlier.
Yes, talking much more, all the time, on mobile phones has made the average Nairobian more fudgy about time and location. "I'm only 5 mins away", "Just around the corner", "It's no one, just speaking to a work colleague"

And yes, if a young woman carried around an ATM card/MPesa at hand of 8,000/= on a Saturday in a mall, higher chances of her spending at least half as compared to if the money required to queue for 30mins to get to.

Wakanyugi
#25 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:36:07 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
@Maitchblack: Clearly I did not go to the same school of Economics as you did. But I am certainly not the one who should be suing for my money back.

Forget the high sounding formulae and theories for a minute. A part of the answer to your problem can be found in the following statement which you made:

“Does M-Pesa make people spend money which would otherwise have been tacked away under a mattress?”

YES – by reducing inefficiencies in the system, M-peasa does several things:

1. Allows money to change hands more often (almost every time money changes hands goods or services are exchanged which is how an economy grows)
2. By reducing transaction costs, M-pesa allows more money to be moved around
3. M-pesa also allows money to be more efficiently allocated – eg by moving it to rural folks who have a higher propensity to consume.

All this of course assumes an efficient market system, but ours is nothing but. In the meantime, one of the prices we pay is temporary inflation

Let me tell you a story

“A long time ago, before the invention of M-pesa, a young man named Maichblack used to regularly send 3000K to his grandmother in shags. His cucu loves sugar in her tea so she would use the money to buy a kilo or so of the sweet stuff at the local Kiosk (we are keeping things simple here). In return the Kiosk owner, Munene, would order more sugar from the wholesaler at the nearby town.

The whole transaction would on average take about three months. It was unpredictable and quite inefficient and sometimes Maitchblack’s cucu would be forced to do without sugar in her tea.

Maitchblack had a problem. You see the only way he could send money was through Kamau, a tout whose Matatu plies the route to his shags. Sometimes Kamau would drink the money, other times he would demand a 30% percent fee. This was the main reason that Matchblack sent his cucu money every three months or so, although he could have afforded to send more regularly (he still managed to send her 12,000 each year). This in turn affected the Kiosk owner’s sugar orders, which in turn affected the wholesaler, all the way to Kidero’s factory in Mumias (I know, we are keeping it simple here).

Then one day M-pesa was invented. Suddenly Maitch could afford to send his cucu money every month because the transactional risk and cost were reduced. Let us assume he sends exactly the same amount (12,000) as before but this time in tranches of 1000 every month. His cucu is happy now because she can afford to buy sugar regularly. Munene the Kiosk owner is happy too, he now has a regular customer and he can order sugar more regularly from his wholesaler in town - he is actually selling more sugar now but we shall ignore that point. A transaction cycle that used to take 3 months takes one month.

This happy cycle should go all the way to Mumias where the manager will order a change in sugar production to match the new demand cycle, or build additional warehouses to hold buffered stock.

But we have an inefficient market economy. The demand signal will eventually be heard and the market will respond. But that will take time. Meanwhile what you will have is temporary inflation.

In other words Maicthbalck's cucu will have money to buy sugar but Munene will have less sugar to sell because his supplies have not arrived, he will raise the price.

This may look insignificant but consider that M-pesa moves 2 billion shillings a day and you can see the effect is not so mall.

You are very welcome!
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
GenghisCapitalLtd
#26 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:39:36 AM

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Joined: 11/2/2011
Posts: 191
Location: Nairobi
The views proposed here are so diverse. http://www.forbes.com/si...es-not-cause-inflation/
I think that article may offer some insight. Just read through it and you will see what I mean. Are we inflexible in that we take Friedma's assumptions for the MV=PQ theory as the truth or we, as a nation, do not really understand the implications of the assumptions. I think we will be evolving to better understand this when we can define what Money really is! Laughing out loudly
I usually thought that the above equation is straight forward.
Follow us on Twitter @genghiscapital
“Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren’t used to an environment where excellence is expected.” Steve Jobs,iGenius
MaichBlack
#27 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:45:45 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,467
@Wakanyugi - As I sign off, I can only refer you to post #14 by @vvs. As @vvs has aptly put it, if MPesa changes expenditure patterns the way you say it does, it should actually reduce the rate of inflation.

I will not repeat what @vvs has said. I'll just add.

If cucu can buy sugar weekly as opposed to monthly or by-monthly, it means that companies can even-out their production thereby reducing warehousing cost, insurance cost and financing costs. Items produced in week one are actully sold in the same week. This reduces the costs mentioned above and also makes money available for week 2's production [or week three - whichever].

Ability of cucu to shop daily/weekly and actually pay for her purchases reduces the capital outlay required, increasing the number of players (kiosk owners) and hence competiton which, guess what? Reduces prices!!! How does it reduce capital outlay? I only need enough for one weeks stock, which I can sell in cash and replenish the stock.

To my knowledge, there is no company that has been unable to keep up with the consumption rate primarily because people are buying weekly instead of monthly or bi-monthly. the shortages we have experienced are because of hoarding or reduced production, NOT frequency of purchase. If the same item were to be bought weekly, fortnightly, monthly or even quarterly, the shortage - leading to inflation - would still be there!

I challenge you, to prove your theory is not purely theoretical, to mention one product that manufucturers couldn't keep up with production pace just because of change of frequncy of purchase without increase in overall demand quantity.

Having said that, I appreciate your views on the matter and the intellectual discourse. We don't have to agree 100% to learn from each other.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
dnn
#28 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 1:14:46 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/17/2006
Posts: 133

like this thread, it'sno sol. to tag responsibility on the efficiency of mpesa (talk of the cost of time n effort in the alternatives)...sysytems shld keep up to spped if they r to remain useful..

-@maich- seem 2 know ur field
-@- blame road issues on smooth roads-ha!ha!he!
GenghisCapitalLtd
#29 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 3:42:47 PM

Rank: Bona-fide


Joined: 11/2/2011
Posts: 191
Location: Nairobi
@dnn I do agree the diverse views on this thread is astounding. maichblack is an elder thus he knows his stuff and so does Wakanyungi and Drunkard as well. Thank you Wazua for such a forum where we can have an intellectual debate...wanted to get the deal and QW views on this topic as well. As I said from post 1 I agree with maichblack kabisa but I am open minded as I am sure he is but very interesting views!
Follow us on Twitter @genghiscapital
“Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren’t used to an environment where excellence is expected.” Steve Jobs,iGenius
Scubidu
#30 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:17:37 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Interesting topic. i'm with @maich and @vvs. it seems like a case of technology driving inflation expectations. does improving access for granma to banking services through wider ATM coverage a comparable analogy in terms of flow, money in circulation and access to savings. what's the origin of the transfer and does improved technology increase the overall amount of savings sent? i'd like to think mpesa smoothened consumption patterns but not increased them-she's limited to what she's sent.

So far it's a shift of savings we're referring to in this example and not an increase in money supply (granma is getting frequent payments of the same amount-if the amount increases is it due to increased saving or credit). But it's interesting that most policy makers have been looking at how diaspora remittances into the country have been consumed and spent locally - but i wonder if there have been studies that examine the use of funds through the Mpesa service. i use mpesa largely for utilities, insurance payments and non interest psp loans.

I remember @vvs had mentioned mpesa p2p loans in a topic called 'CBK reduces rates' post#28 a few years ago... more relevant to Mkesho. My understanding of Mkesho is limited but i'd assume the o/d is short term (month), but gives the user access to credit (micro loans). Last i heard it had over 700k customers in early 2011, but since flopped to 300k. Would there be a case of Mkesho driving inflation if borrowers have a line of credit (albeit small one) and disbursements are transferred through the Mpesa distribution network? This time granma is not tapping into someone else's savings, but bank credit.

my 2 cents
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Wakanyugi
#31 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:38:44 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
@MaichBlack

I believe we have beaten this horse enough and ask to sign of too. Before I too, here are the answers to a few of your questions:

1. You challenge me to name a product that has been affected by the change in velocity of money. I already gave the example of sugar prices in the country, a good that used to be a luxury but has rapidly become an inelastic necessity.

2. You insist your cucu buying sugar weekly instead of monthly has no effect on prices - yes it does a) when she used to receive money via an unpredictable schedule she would sometimes forgo sugar (and no, don't argue that she would simply buy more when the money finally arrived) b) change in the purchase cycle has an effect on an industry like sugar production which is in turn dependent on inelastic production factors like weather and fixed plant.

3. There is one reason why Governor Ndungu would ignore the inflation causing effect of a variation in money velocity - the fact that with time the market will adjust to meet the demand occurring out of phase. But it takes time.

4. Finally markets normally respond to signals like demand which in turn are indicated by change in prices - not the other way round. These price changes are not always caused by increased production costs. Sometimes they are caused by a temporary shortage owing to inefficiencies in the demand/supply pipeline. As a result too much money ends up chasing too few goods - in other words, inflation.

P.S. As for that crack about smooth roads causing accidents, they do. It is one of the prices we pay for having good roads - the benefit may ultimately outweigh the price but it does not discount it. Just like we were told, for years, that new technology does not cause loss in jobs. Now economists finally come around to the fact that in fact it does. M-pesa causes temporary inflation, should we therefore do without it it? NO.

Have a good day

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Drunkard
#32 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:03:05 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 559
I strongly believe in objective analysis at the same time, I understand that economic theories most of the time reflect a line of thinking which sometimes could be wrong so dropping an economic theory to argue a point is sometimes not objective, you can site a theory but we cannot based an entire argument on a theory.

We not only have to see it from theories stand point but also real life situation and if you understand inflation then this discussion was won a long time ago.

@MaichBlack, you're right in some ways but, I am afraid you know Wakanyugi is very right on the effects of the velocity of money but you're arguing for the sake of it. First we know that velocity of money can cause short time inflation based on the movement along the money supply curve, we also know that increase in velocity of money cannot equal to increase in supply of money, but the impact of movement along the curve can be felt in short term just like increase in supply of money.

Now lets go back to Mkeiy point, he is right in a sense and this is not based on theories in economics, Mpesa increase the availability of money, call it liquidity of the economy. Stretch this to probability theories and think through it, you do not need probability models to understand that spliting money to many people increases the chances of spending than when I hold all the money in Nairobi and only come home to my village end month.
Aguytrying
#33 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:36:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Economics 202. I'm in class here, awesome.

@genghis. Deal and QW would cause some very nasty fights on this thread where there are divergent views, hauwajui vizuri. smile (wazua banter)
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
the deal
#34 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:46:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
Mpesa enables Kenyans...1. to have easy Access to their cash--->product penetration>banking sector...people don't carry cash in their wallets these days...as long as u have mpesa you can pay for goods and services...its the new wallet 2. Allows them to easily circulate their cash among themselves 3. Stimulates Spending (demand driven inflation) bcos of 1. Just try it yourself put 5K in your Mpesa and another one in your savings a/c. Just watch how fast you will be able to circulate and spend the 5k on your Mpesa. I dont keep money on my mpesa bcos of 3.
Aguytrying
#35 Posted : Wednesday, February 22, 2012 8:49:23 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Btw its true. When i have cash on mpesa i have a tendency to spend more on airtime than when i don't.
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
kenmac
#36 Posted : Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:47:02 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 1,793
interesting read.

The major trigger of inflation was the low interest rates on borrowing that cbk used to spur economic growth. This triggerred a wave of investments and mass borrowing.

E.g. As people borrowed for construction projects, they increased their spending by buying materials and hiring labour. The fundis and suppliers had more money and increased their spending. The money ended up in the villages through mpesa transmissions. With increased disposable income, matched with unchanged supply of goods, prices had to be adjusted upwards to meet demand at a higher equilibrium. This triggered inflation but was commensurate with the increased investments.

So did mpesa contribute to inflation. Yes, partly. By increasing the efficiency of money velocity, the market was more responsive to the increased money supply from borrowings. Without mpesa, there would have been a delayed inflationary effects, but it would have still caught up. Therefore, mpesa did partly contribute in accelerating the rate of inflation through increased velocity. However, mpesa had no effect on the amount of money supply, which was the core source of inflation.
......Ecclesiastes
GenghisCapitalLtd
#37 Posted : Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:07:47 PM

Rank: Bona-fide


Joined: 11/2/2011
Posts: 191
Location: Nairobi
Aguytrying wrote:
Economics 202. I'm in class here, awesome.

@genghis. Deal and QW would cause some very nasty fights on this thread where there are divergent views, hauwajui vizuri. smile (wazua banter)

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Wakiskia hivyo si watatupa their two cents chap chap. Naona the deal ameandika and I do support point 3 yake, I have fallen victim to that on many occassions. Aguytrying ur two cents?
Follow us on Twitter @genghiscapital
“Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren’t used to an environment where excellence is expected.” Steve Jobs,iGenius
Aguytrying
#38 Posted : Wednesday, February 22, 2012 2:26:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
GenghisCapitalLtd wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Economics 202. I'm in class here, awesome.

@genghis. Deal and QW would cause some very nasty fights on this thread where there are divergent views, hauwajui vizuri. smile (wazua banter)

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Wakiskia hivyo si watatupa their two cents chap chap. Naona the deal ameandika and I do support point 3 yake, I have fallen victim to that on many occassions. Aguytrying ur two cents?

here i'm more of a spectator, learning about cause of inflationary pressures and money velocity.
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
poundfoolish
#39 Posted : Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:12:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
my head is spinning.. and im horribly lost
but i just beg to ask.. whats the definition of inflation..?

then i ask.. has MPesa increased the goods or the amount of money...?

The only explanation is that Mpesa has probably taken money that was relatively hard to 'reach' from banks and 'banked' it within everybody's reach..
Too much liquid out here..

then again if i have 30K to spend in a month.. and it would take me 5 days to access the 30K as compared to 10days previously..does it mean i can purchase more goods? Its still my 30K

Why didnt this phenomena by MPesa hit during the earlier years?..only now..?

as VV puts it.. the effects of Mpesa should be very minimal to inflation.. unless MPESA agents are creating virtual money..

that brings me to the question.. float or no float.. can MPesa create virtual money..? i can give the guy 4K ask him to 'load' me 8K promising ill pay back the extra 4K immediately the deal goes through.
Wakanyugi
#40 Posted : Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:26:35 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
[quote=poundfoolish]my head is spinning.. and im horribly lost
but i just beg to ask..

Not to re-open this debate, but let me see if I can put your spinning head to some kind of rest:

whats the definition of inflation..?

The popular definition of inflation is 'too much money chasing two few goods. But even that should be taken with a pinch of salt as the Forbes piece posted earlier by Genghis indicated.


then i ask.. has MPesa increased the goods or the amount of money...?

Neither...but, see below

The only explanation is that Mpesa has probably taken money that was relatively hard to 'reach' from banks and 'banked' it within everybody's reach..
Too much liquid out here..

This is true. Mpesa has enabled money that would have been kept under the proverbial mattress to circulate. However I don't think this has a very big effect on inflation, in my opinion.

The big effect, IMHO, is from the fact that M-pesa has enabled money to pass through more hands than would have been the case before. In my explanation, each change of hands is equivalent to a commercial transaction where good/services are demanded and supplied.

Therefore a demand/supply transaction that would have happened say once before a tranche money comes to 'rest' happens, say, three times or more (same money) within a set time period. In an ideal situation this new demand would create wealth and economic growth. In a less than ideal situation, like ours, it also creates demand inflation, which is temporary.


You could argue that by increasing velocity of money, M-pesa creates virtual money - just like banks create virtual money by giving out a loan. Since the economy is not flexible enough to produce the goods/services this extra money demands (money is only good if exchanged for something) inflation occurs.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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