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maina20
#161 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 11:37:34 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 249
Location: nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
KAA was run by corrupt muhoho for many years. It would not surprise me if he had a hand in these fake allocations. The 'new' KAA might look at it differently...

Sad very very true! i totally agree....Sad
..desire to succeed is always fighting with fear of failure..
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jamplu
#162 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:11:27 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/25/2010
Posts: 939
Location: Nai
The Minister alleged that all title deeds if any allocated to the same land are fake he also suggested that other allocated in other areas in mavoko were fake and in some other cases multiple titles issued to same piece of land
am just wondering if you camped at the lands office went through all processes and had that title deed issued to you by a land registration officer then kusema tu ukweli are we safe buying land anywhere around mavoko.
How is the market doing around Mavoko??
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Obi 1 Kanobi
#163 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:41:08 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
mukiha wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
(1)How does the law work, assuming the owners were innocent victims of fraud. My question is that they must have had some form of official govt document to even get approval to construct etc.

The fact that (2)KAA watched them construct those houses to me is proof enough that their rights to the land parcels were genuine. Any progressive judge who understands the spirit of the law should make KAA/gava to compensate them fully, for the.

Na hao wezi should be arrested, employees of KAA and the people they worked in cahoots with.

My advise to anybody whose proerty has been lost through gava's incompetence, just get yourself a good lawyer, sue and be patient.


(1). Consider a different case: some one steals your car; goes to Kirinyaga rd and produces a fake logbook; sells the car to me (after colluding with a fellow at KRA to cheat me that the car is his). Two years later you find me driving it proudly around your estate. What would you do? Would you listen to my long stories of how I bought it, or would you simply want your car back?

(2). KAA is a body corporate. It is not a person with eyes to see. Still, KAA issued numerous caveats warning people against interfering with that parcel of land. What more could they have done? When push came to shove, KAA acted...


Mukiha, the scenario I was presenting is like this: in the fast instance, if someone meets a lady, he then seduces and they agree to marry, he goes to the village elders who accompany him to the girls place where he pays dowry and takes the girl as a wife. they then proceed to have a family including children.

Five years down the line, your neighbour who has been observing all this wakes up one day and claims that the girl (now your wife) was actually married to him. The same elders who helped you pay dowry now turn on you and accuse you of stealing another man's wife and proceed to forcefully take her away.

Who in this case suffers injustice.

Assume the lady has had no input on all this. I apologise in advance for using this sexist example.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Dash
#164 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:41:55 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 677
Location: Nairobi
jamplu wrote:
The Minister alleged that all title deeds if any allocated to the same land are fake he also suggested that other allocated in other areas in mavoko were fake and in some other cases multiple titles issued to same piece of land
am just wondering if you camped at the lands office went through all processes and had that title deed issued to you by a land registration officer then kusema tu ukweli are we safe buying land anywhere around mavoko.
How is the market doing around Mavoko??


Are we safe buying land ANYWHERE in Kenya?
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lynx
#165 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:49:23 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 11/15/2011
Posts: 25
I fear not...the minister can render them illegal any given sunday
If you knew that candlelight is fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.
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Obi 1 Kanobi
#166 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:50:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
jamplu wrote:
The Minister alleged that all title deeds if any allocated to the same land are fake he also suggested that other allocated in other areas in mavoko were fake and in some other cases multiple titles issued to same piece of land
am just wondering if you camped at the lands office went through all processes and had that title deed issued to you by a land registration officer then kusema tu ukweli are we safe buying land anywhere around mavoko.
How is the market doing around Mavoko??


I really recent Orengo's management style, how is saying that the titles are fake helping the situation. In all the time he has been in that lands ministry, I have never heard him mention anything forward looking, his is to defend past errors and mediocrity by his officials
- how about he comments about the Kenyans who just saw their futures changed forever?
- How about telling us how fake titles are produced and what he plans to do to ensure kenyans don't lose their lifes work in future?
- How about he educates Kenyans on how to correctly go about acquiring land and how to identify fake titles or procedures to ensure one buys genuine land?

He is trully lost in the management and should go back to the back benches where he can shout himself hoarse as an opposition politician.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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addidaskawembe
#167 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:53:09 PM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 5/14/2010
Posts: 84
Location: Nairobi
mukiha wrote:
addidaskawembe wrote:
Jus Blazin wrote:
Just in the recent past, Kyangombe slum was demolished, and there were no outcries .


@Jus Blazin, a demolished slum can be rebuilt with in day on any alternative space and the materials can be reused BUT the houses in Syokimau cannot be rebuilt, once demolished the investment is gone.

Secondly Kyang'ombe slums was an encroachment, money never changed hands but in Syokimau people bought the land, took loans to construct e.t.c

Any one in his right mind cannot compare the two !!

Remember the affected guys conducted a thorough search and the Mlolongo Brothers had a title for the 4,000 acres.



The social cost is the same: people are left homeless.

Not true: money always changes hands when a slum is being developed. Local Chiefs and DOs collect a lot of money from the "Developers". I watched as Mukuru was enlarged to fill the space between Hazina estate and Hazina Shopping Complex.

This happened immediately after a new Chief's office was erected in that area. The Chief was collecting 50k per plot to look the other way...


@Mukiha, you are partly right but missed the point...

In slums the owners (landlords) of those houses don't stay there,..the tenants don't mind if the slum is demolished as long as they rescue their household stuff and have an alternative place to move on. They have no stake in what's being demolished other than their furniture e.t.c..

BUT in Syokimau and other middle class developments the guys who stay in those houses are the actual owners and went through all processes to secure their property including approvals e.t.c. They have a huge stake in the property being demolished.. You cannot compare a slum demolition and a demolition like what happened in Syokimau.
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GenghisCapitalLtd
#168 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 2:59:06 PM

Rank: Bona-fide

Joined: 11/2/2011
Posts: 191
Location: Nairobi
It really is shocking where our country is headed to. Please correct me if I am wrong but the cabinet approved the destruction of properties on that land right? Which body constitutes the cabinet isnt it the MPs? The fact that KAA didnt pay land rates for the longest time yet the "land owners" did put any weight on their case if they decide to take KAA to court? This is a sad state of affairs that our justice system wont/cant help because it is not an independent body!!
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ecstacy
#169 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:06:48 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2008
Posts: 4,449
After watching the deliberations in Parliament yesterday and facts as presented by the Lands Minister and Transport Minister, I have to agree the truth likely is with KAA.

MPs from the affected areas were playing to the gallery with emotions galore instead of addressing the Ministerial evidence as presented.

The title deed in KAA's name, a map confirming territory boundary as KAA described it, court orders stopping construction back in 2004/5..

COMPARED TO

Letters purporting to originate from Lands Ministry as written by an official suspended at the time of writing due to scandal with the Mayor's house, a letter allegedly written by Mr Orengo with his forged signature etc...If this is how the residents ended up with 'title deeds', they are obviously fake regardless of any GoK seal on them...

The Lands Minister even said he was willing to appear in camera and provide names of MP's who have used their govt positions to 'allocate' govt land and are now quite emotive on this demolitions as compared to any other due to their involvement or that of their friends or family.

I agree with the Transport Minister, it is the height of impunity when legislators likely acting to play to the gallery or servings of public land grabbers, use the floor of the house to table documents whose authenticity is clearly suspect and subvert the rule of law.

The Lands Minister and Transport Minister both sought to state that the individuals concerned at various points are known and prosecution be carried out.

The House Committees have this evidence to begin with.
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Obi 1 Kanobi
#170 Posted : Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:15:21 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
ecstacy wrote:
After watching the deliberations in Parliament yesterday and facts as presented by the Lands Minister and Transport Minister, I have to agree the truth likely is with KAA.

The title deed in KAA's name, a map confirming territory boundary as KAA described it, court orders stopping construction back in 2004/5

COMPARED TO

Letters purporting to originate from Lands Ministry as written by an official suspended at the time of writing due to scandal with the Mayor's house, a letter allegedly written by Mr Orengo with his forged signature etc...If this is how the residents ended up with 'title deeds', they are obviously fake.

The Lands Minister even said he was willing to appear in camera and provide names of MP's who have used their govt positions to 'allocate' govt land and are now quite emotive on this demolitions as compared to any other due to their involvement or that of their friends or family.

The Lands Minister and Transport Minister both sought to state that the individuals concerned at various points are known and prosecution be carried out.

The House Committees have this evidence to begin with.




My problem is this:

- Why didn't KAA secure this land in 2004 when the people started invading it, why wait for 7 years to demolish the properties after people have resold the lands to innocent kenyans who then spent millions developing them.
- Is every Kenyan supposed to know how Orengo's signature looks like so he can be able to tell when they see a fake?
- If the minister knows the people who were involved in the shady lands deal, why does he need to appear in camera, why can't he name them on the floor of the house.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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