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Is Taking a Mortgage the WORST Decision Ever??
jaggernaut
#241 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:27:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389
premio wrote:
Phenom estate 4bedroom massionnettes was 14m in 2012 today 22m even if u took a mortgage at that time assuming uve paid only 1m u can sell at 22m make a clean 9000000kes and buy a similar house on msa road or build your own mansion on a 3m prime plot

Can you sell a house which you are still servicing a mortgage?
MaichBlack
#242 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:32:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,455
jaggernaut wrote:
radio wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
mawinder wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
@jawgey - Check your mail.

Me too.
ellyodhong@gmail.com

Check mail.


Boss, before yoy leave, drop me the contacts at radio.icloud@gmail

Asante!

Hata mimi

jnaut at ymail dot com

Sent
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
Angelica _ann
#243 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:34:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
jaggernaut wrote:
premio wrote:
Phenom estate 4bedroom massionnettes was 14m in 2012 today 22m even if u took a mortgage at that time assuming uve paid only 1m u can sell at 22m make a clean 9000000kes and buy a similar house on msa road or build your own mansion on a 3m prime plot

Can you sell a house which you are still servicing a mortgage?


YES!
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
radio
#244 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:43:00 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/9/2009
Posts: 2,003
MaichBlack wrote:
jaggernaut wrote:
radio wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
mawinder wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
@jawgey - Check your mail.

Me too.
ellyodhong@gmail.com

Check mail.


Boss, before yoy leave, drop me the contacts at radio.icloud@gmail

Asante!

Hata mimi

jnaut at ymail dot com

Sent


Received! Thanks.
jaggernaut
#245 Posted : Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:45:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389
Angelica _ann wrote:
jaggernaut wrote:
premio wrote:
Phenom estate 4bedroom massionnettes was 14m in 2012 today 22m even if u took a mortgage at that time assuming uve paid only 1m u can sell at 22m make a clean 9000000kes and buy a similar house on msa road or build your own mansion on a 3m prime plot

Can you sell a house which you are still servicing a mortgage?


YES!

Are you serious? I've always thought that the bank holds the title of the property until you clear the mortgage.
mawinder
#246 Posted : Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:49:06 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
jaggernaut wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
jaggernaut wrote:
premio wrote:
Phenom estate 4bedroom massionnettes was 14m in 2012 today 22m even if u took a mortgage at that time assuming uve paid only 1m u can sell at 22m make a clean 9000000kes and buy a similar house on msa road or build your own mansion on a 3m prime plot

Can you sell a house which you are still servicing a mortgage?


YES!

Are you serious? I've always thought that the bank holds the title of the property until you clear the mortgage.

YES.The new buyer prepares 2 cheques,one to offset the mortgage and the other for the purported owner.
kollabo
#247 Posted : Thursday, May 15, 2014 12:10:47 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/3/2012
Posts: 1,317
mawinder wrote:
premio wrote:
Phenom estate 4bedroom massionnettes was 14m in 2012 today 22m even if u took a mortgage at that time assuming uve paid only 1m u can sell at 22m make a clean 9000000kes and buy a similar house on msa road or build your own mansion on a 3m prime plot

You mean the Phenom next to Carnivore the houses there go for 22m?The buyers must be financially illiterate to buy at that price


Phenom Estate anyone paying more than 15m is throwing money. Link
a4architect.com
#248 Posted : Thursday, May 15, 2014 12:30:51 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
proximity to the southern bypass gives these houses a commercial income/office/shop potential in future.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
MaichBlack
#249 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:17:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,455
Twenty Years a Slave!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
KulaRaha
#250 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:27:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
Athi View were selling at 9.95M off plan last year in August. They wanted a down payment of 2M and you can book your house.

They have since started work, and even gone to the extent of tarmacing the road from Mombasa Road. Now remaining units are selling at 12.5M.

Thats a 25.5% return in less than a year.

Watch that space.

http://www.athiview.com/
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
quicksand
#251 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 4:05:14 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
mawinder wrote:
jaggernaut wrote:
Angelica _ann wrote:
jaggernaut wrote:
premio wrote:
Phenom estate 4bedroom massionnettes was 14m in 2012 today 22m even if u took a mortgage at that time assuming uve paid only 1m u can sell at 22m make a clean 9000000kes and buy a similar house on msa road or build your own mansion on a 3m prime plot

Can you sell a house which you are still servicing a mortgage?


YES!

Are you serious? I've always thought that the bank holds the title of the property until you clear the mortgage.

YES.The new buyer prepares 2 cheques,one to offset the mortgage and the other for the purported owner.

But are there takers at 22 million? The monthly installments for 14M are staggering wacha hiyo hata 22! ..assuming an interest rate disaster like 2012 does not happen again...you are financially crippled for 15 to 20 years.
My sacco passed the increased rate in 2012 on a loan I had taken from 12% to 22%, saying the loan had been underwritten by a bank and the bank had changed the rules. It was very painful indeed. It opened my eyes to just how much misery can come your way when you are holding a large debt to be repaid over many years. Kenyan banks are rogues. Simple. Minimise exposure by building your house, its a pain in the ass but it lasts 4 to 6 years and leaves you with small manageable debt or no debt depending on how your resources and planning are. 20 years? Ngoja 2016 utaona...... Sad
Again I ask, who are these people buying 22 million houses? The kenyan mortgage market is unnatural.
tom_boy
#252 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:39:06 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
I have worked closely with very rich Kenyans and what I have noticed is that the rich are very carefull about managing risk. In fact, they don't take chances with their wealth and health. I believe that is why the very rich choose to invest in real estate or at least will have a real estate portfolio. This is not to say that they do not take loans and mortgages, but these are carefully calculated to ensure they remain on top of things even in the worst case scenario.
Not so for 'Wanjiku'. 'Wanjiku' will jump at any opportunity as long as it holds some hope, no matter how vague, of a better tomorrow. This therefore becomes her downfall and with each successive defeat, she grows more desperate to get ahead and takes greater risks that occasion greater losses. Of course, by pure chance, a 'wanjiku' will take a risk and succeed. Others will look at her and think they can replicate the success by taking even greater risk.
I have decided, the way to get ahead is by losing as little as possible. A sustained 10-15% gain with minimal to moderate risk is better than 100% gain with high risk. By risk, I mean risk to my person rather than risk of the investment. I may afford to lose 10,000 on investment 'A' which is a high risk venture, but my neighbour would be crushed by a 5000 loss in a similar investment.
When I consider mortgage, this is the way I choose to look at it. Chances are, people buying 22 million houses on mortgage can probably afford to buy it for cash. However, they would rather use their cash for something else and can afford to drop that house like a hot cake if bad turns to worse and they will not end up on the street. Of course some 'wanjiku' will try to keep up and when the music stops, she will be caught out in the cold, and start blaming everyone else about it.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
jaggernaut
#253 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:53:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389
MaichBlack wrote:


Phew!
C&P

The average size of a mortgage rose to Sh6.9 million last year, further pushing away the dream of financed home ownership from the majority of Kenyans. A borrower who takes a loan of Sh6.9 million at 16.37 per cent over 20 years has to pay Sh97,917 a month (totaling 23.5m). The average allowable ratio of loan installment to income is approximately 51 per cent. This means that for a borrower to service the Sh97,917 installment they would have to be earning a salary of over Sh180,000. Central Bank said that 1,280 mortgage loans valued at Sh8.4 billion were in default compared to 956 accounts in 2012 worth Sh6.7 billion.
Omena
#254 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:41:11 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 4/12/2014
Posts: 36
A mortgage is not intended to be taken to it's full term, and I am sure if you look at past stats, it will show most mortgages are completed in between 5-7 years.

The essence of a mortgage in the Kenyan setup in my view is to secure the house - which is usually very fast appreciating, as you source/wait for wind fall gains to complete the payments. Mortgage is to shikilia, so you lock the house price. Incomes, like lifestyle generally go up over time and windfall gains are also an economics fact.

The mathematics of NPV, IRR, PBP etc cannot be logically computed with accuracy in our peculiar environment. My advice would be to take a mortgage and hassle to pay as quick as you can, over time you will find you are wealthier, than if you panicked and listened to the likes of @maich
 It’s what you learn after you think you know it all that counts.
Mukiri
#255 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 9:25:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
KulaRaha wrote:
Athi View were selling at 9.95M off plan last year in August. They wanted a down payment of 2M and you can book your house.

They have since started work, and even gone to the extent of tarmacing the road from Mombasa Road. Now remaining units are selling at 12.5M.

Thats a 25.5% return in less than a year.

Watch that space.

http://www.athiview.com/

Other off-plans known? Maybe we should start a threadPray

Proverbs 19:21
MaichBlack
#256 Posted : Wednesday, June 11, 2014 5:39:25 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,455
Omena wrote:
A mortgage is not intended to be taken to it's full term, and I am sure if you look at past stats, it will show most mortgages are completed in between 5-7 years.

The essence of a mortgage in the Kenyan setup in my view is to secure the house - which is usually very fast appreciating, as you source/wait for wind fall gains to complete the payments. Mortgage is to shikilia, so you lock the house price. Incomes, like lifestyle generally go up over time and windfall gains are also an economics fact.

The mathematics of NPV, IRR, PBP etc cannot be logically computed with accuracy in our peculiar environment. My advice would be to take a mortgage and hassle to pay as quick as you can, over time you will find you are wealthier, than if you panicked and listened to the likes of @maich

He he he!!! You are paying 97,000/= a month for 20 years for a loan of 6.7million and you are telling people to accelerate to what??? Talk about theory vs reality!!

And if you can set aside more than 97,000/= you are supposed to be creating wealth for yourself not ending up with a fourth floor flat which is what you'll get with 6.7million in this market!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
Angelica _ann
#257 Posted : Wednesday, June 11, 2014 8:34:35 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,908
@MB, you have taken a hard stand on this but
1.Dont you think the Kshs. 6.7m house/apartment/flat would have appreciated after 2-3 years.

2. What i know practically most people do is you take the 20 year mortgage but when you get a windfall e.g. bonus of 800k, you eat 200k and use 600k to repay the principal (channeling a good percentage towards loan repayment) which drastically reduces the principal repayement and therefore saves you on interest payment in the long run.

3. It also helps many poeple who are not disciplined in money matters commit thier earnings into a more viable project. e.g when you get a salary increment then you adjust the 97k monthly repayment to like 105k in year 1 then 120k in year 2.

4. Using 2 & 3 above, you can reduce drastically the 20 years to less than 7 years and even you are a guy of madeals to less than 3 years.

We all know that idle money gets wasteful but with commitments gets useful!

However much you castigate it it has worked for many people.

What do you say of this guy who took a 4m mortgage loan in 2002 and bought half an acre plot in Karen touching the southern by-pass route. Recent valuation is 18m whereas through fast tracking he paid HFCK only 3.2m.

I have seen mortgage work provided you are disciplined and know what you are doing or vice versa.

Meanwhile there are others who have been auctioned and taken to the cleaners!

Mortgage has worked for me and i am happy and i cannot fully castigate it!
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
Sufficiently Philanga....thropic
#258 Posted : Wednesday, June 11, 2014 10:49:41 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2010
Posts: 2,220
Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
Angelica _ann wrote:
@MB, you have taken a hard stand on this but
1.Dont you think the Kshs. 6.7m house/apartment/flat would have appreciated after 2-3 years.

2. What i know practically most people do is you take the 20 year mortgage but when you get a windfall e.g. bonus of 800k, you eat 200k and use 600k to repay the principal (channeling a good percentage towards loan repayment) which drastically reduces the principal repayement and therefore saves you on interest payment in the long run.

3. It also helps many poeple who are not disciplined in money matters commit thier earnings into a more viable project. e.g when you get a salary increment then you adjust the 97k monthly repayment to like 105k in year 1 then 120k in year 2.

4. Using 2 & 3 above, you can reduce drastically the 20 years to less than 7 years and even you are a guy of madeals to less than 3 years.

We all know that idle money gets wasteful but with commitments gets useful!

However much you castigate it it has worked for many people.

What do you say of this guy who took a 4m mortgage loan in 2002 and bought half an acre plot in Karen touching the southern by-pass route. Recent valuation is 18m whereas through fast tracking he paid HFCK only 3.2m.

I have seen mortgage work provided you are disciplined and know what you are doing or vice versa.

Meanwhile there are others who have been auctioned and taken to the cleaners!

Mortgage has worked for me and i am happy and i cannot fully castigate it!

That was the price of half an acre in 2007 and not in 2002. In 2002, KES.4M would have bought him/her 2 acres in Karen.
@SufficientlyP
whiteowl
#259 Posted : Wednesday, June 11, 2014 11:38:47 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/16/2014
Posts: 1,420
Location: Bohemian Grove
MaichBlack wrote:
Omena wrote:
A mortgage is not intended to be taken to it's full term, and I am sure if you look at past stats, it will show most mortgages are completed in between 5-7 years.

The essence of a mortgage in the Kenyan setup in my view is to secure the house - which is usually very fast appreciating, as you source/wait for wind fall gains to complete the payments. Mortgage is to shikilia, so you lock the house price. Incomes, like lifestyle generally go up over time and windfall gains are also an economics fact.

The mathematics of NPV, IRR, PBP etc cannot be logically computed with accuracy in our peculiar environment. My advice would be to take a mortgage and hassle to pay as quick as you can, over time you will find you are wealthier, than if you panicked and listened to the likes of @maich

He he he!!! You are paying 97,000/= a month for 20 years for a loan of 6.7million and you are telling people to accelerate to what??? Talk about theory vs reality!!

And if you can set aside more than 97,000/= you are supposed to be creating wealth for yourself not ending up with a fourth floor flat which is what you'll get with 6.7million in this market!


only in countries like US do I find guys with a good cashflow or even mil/billionaires taking a mortgage coz interest rates are super low.If you can afford an extra 100k/month I really don't see the need.
MaichBlack
#260 Posted : Wednesday, June 11, 2014 12:14:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,455
whiteowl wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
Omena wrote:
A mortgage is not intended to be taken to it's full term, and I am sure if you look at past stats, it will show most mortgages are completed in between 5-7 years.

The essence of a mortgage in the Kenyan setup in my view is to secure the house - which is usually very fast appreciating, as you source/wait for wind fall gains to complete the payments. Mortgage is to shikilia, so you lock the house price. Incomes, like lifestyle generally go up over time and windfall gains are also an economics fact.

The mathematics of NPV, IRR, PBP etc cannot be logically computed with accuracy in our peculiar environment. My advice would be to take a mortgage and hassle to pay as quick as you can, over time you will find you are wealthier, than if you panicked and listened to the likes of @maich

He he he!!! You are paying 97,000/= a month for 20 years for a loan of 6.7million and you are telling people to accelerate to what??? Talk about theory vs reality!!

And if you can set aside more than 97,000/= you are supposed to be creating wealth for yourself not ending up with a fourth floor flat which is what you'll get with 6.7million in this market!


only in countries like US do I find guys with a good cashflow or even mil/billionaires taking a mortgage coz interest rates are super low.If you can afford an extra 100k/month I really don't see the need.

Exactly!!!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
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