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Cytonn Investments
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KulaRaha
#1201 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2021 10:58:22 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
In 2016, I have an email from them offering me 18% for 1 year fixed funds, while the prevailing t bill rate for the same tenor was between 11 and 12%.

I think they were a ponzi from the start, its just people did not catch onto it soon enough.

Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
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mv_ufanisi
#1202 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2021 11:41:09 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 625
This is one of those kind of investments where the people running the show will win regardless of whatever happens.
It's a game where at the flip of a coin,
Heads I win, Tails you Lose.
It's actually quite similar to how the guys at Centum were earning huge bonuses while shareholders have lost heavily. The management faces no downside when shit hits the fan but claims bonuses based on unrealized real estate "appreciation". When the real estate takes a hit of course they do not pay back the bonuses and the carry that they earned in the hey days. Lack of skin in the game by the management should be a huge warning signal to any serious investor.
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  | | Edit by user: Monday, June 21, 2021 11:47 AM | Reason: Not specified
sparkly
#1203 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2021 9:11:58 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
KulaRaha wrote:
In 2016, I have an email from them offering me 18% for 1 year fixed funds, while the prevailing t bill rate for the same tenor was between 11 and 12%.

I think they were a ponzi from the start, its just people did not catch onto it soon enough.



Chase Bank was offering up to 24%-26% on fixed deposits of 6 -12 months at that time. They simply took the money to Chase Bank took the 6%-8% margin plus a management fee of 2%.
Life is short. Live passionately.
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VituVingiSana
#1204 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 1:13:52 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
mv_ufanisi wrote:
This is one of those kind of investments where the people running the show will win regardless of whatever happens.
It's a game where at the flip of a coin,
Heads I win, Tails you Lose.
It's actually quite similar to how the guys at Centum were earning huge bonuses while shareholders have lost heavily. The management faces no downside when shit hits the fan but claims bonuses based on unrealized real estate "appreciation". When the real estate takes a hit of course they do not pay back the bonuses and the carry that they earned in the hey days. Lack of skin in the game by the management should be a huge warning signal to any serious investor.

Not defending the huge bonuses at Centum but if you read (not skim) the Annual Report, the compensation is based on "cash returns" not "unrealized gains" though I may be mistaken.

Perhaps with DJ CK's ill-health and death the results have not been released yet but Centum has until 30th June. Let's see what they present.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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tony stark
#1205 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 1:49:26 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
VituVingiSana wrote:
As I eat my popcorn let's see the lay of the land.

@paulkimani seems to have been vindicated but @poundfoolish, @tonystark and @sparkly are putting up a fight.

I agree that Cytonn didn't start out as a Ponzi scheme but some unlucky events eg fiscal indiscipline of GoK and COVID19 has played a huge role in slowing down sales and construction of the real estate projects.

Good luck to the investors in CHYS. Perhaps over time they will recover their principal but the 14-20% interest they were promised may be a bridge too far.

Another option is to take the completed apartments in lieu of the cash. Yes, it might involve a haircut but at least you have an asset in hand you can rent out.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I am not putting up a fight but I am stuck in cytonn with all this COVID manenos. I am not sure I have lost money in Cytonn but i have liquidated some stocks and lost some of money.

I am being very objective about Cytonn, but honestly time will tell if am crying on Wazua or laughing my way to the bank. Crying like paul Kimani or making a run for the cash doesn't help me now.

The option of an apartment is thankfully an option available as an out. Maybe if the price of the apartment is sweetened further for CHYS investors ...Drool Drool Drool Drool

Time will tell.
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Swenani
#1206 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 2:14:24 PM
Rank: User

Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
While I pulled out of Cytonn when they started selling caps and t-shirts. I believe cytoon is not a ponzi, Cytonn just happens to be cash strapped primarily caused by how they structured their investments to mature in 1 year yet the funds were being deployed in RE whose investment horizon should be more than 3 years for one o build and find clients.

They should have required a min investment of 5 years to enable them build and sell the houses.

If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rollout
#1207 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 2:33:44 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 759
tony stark wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
As I eat my popcorn let's see the lay of the land.

@paulkimani seems to have been vindicated but @poundfoolish, @tonystark and @sparkly are putting up a fight.

I agree that Cytonn didn't start out as a Ponzi scheme but some unlucky events eg fiscal indiscipline of GoK and COVID19 has played a huge role in slowing down sales and construction of the real estate projects.

Good luck to the investors in CHYS. Perhaps over time they will recover their principal but the 14-20% interest they were promised may be a bridge too far.

Another option is to take the completed apartments in lieu of the cash. Yes, it might involve a haircut but at least you have an asset in hand you can rent out.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I am not putting up a fight but I am stuck in cytonn with all this COVID manenos. I am not sure I have lost money in Cytonn but i have liquidated some stocks and lost some of money.

I am being very objective about Cytonn, but honestly time will tell if am crying on Wazua or laughing my way to the bank. Crying like paul Kimani or making a run for the cash doesn't help me now.

The option of an apartment is thankfully an option available as an out. Maybe if the price of the apartment is sweetened further for CHYS investors ...Drool Drool Drool Drool

Time will tell.


My main concern is the fact that Cytonn hasn't secured short term bridge financing or even sell equity stake to a global private equity.

Right now there is so much money is PE space that Cytonn shouldn't have to go to courts, delay payments and have their brand tarnished.

Investing is based on trust and brand, once that's tarnished, it is hard to get it cleaned. Either Cytonn.

1. Doesn't have the foresight to comprehend
2. Or doesn't want to open their books for diligence need in order to get the capital

Both are not good signs.
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poundfoolish
#1208 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 5:00:28 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi

I discovered most people here dont have inside scoops and are not as smart as they write. (not refering to you though)

But for your information. They have turned down offers.. starting from local ones.
Hizi kelele za kina Paul sio za bure

Rollout wrote:
tony stark wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
As I eat my popcorn let's see the lay of the land.

@paulkimani seems to have been vindicated but @poundfoolish, @tonystark and @sparkly are putting up a fight.

I agree that Cytonn didn't start out as a Ponzi scheme but some unlucky events eg fiscal indiscipline of GoK and COVID19 has played a huge role in slowing down sales and construction of the real estate projects.

Good luck to the investors in CHYS. Perhaps over time they will recover their principal but the 14-20% interest they were promised may be a bridge too far.

Another option is to take the completed apartments in lieu of the cash. Yes, it might involve a haircut but at least you have an asset in hand you can rent out.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I am not putting up a fight but I am stuck in cytonn with all this COVID manenos. I am not sure I have lost money in Cytonn but i have liquidated some stocks and lost some of money.

I am being very objective about Cytonn, but honestly time will tell if am crying on Wazua or laughing my way to the bank. Crying like paul Kimani or making a run for the cash doesn't help me now.

The option of an apartment is thankfully an option available as an out. Maybe if the price of the apartment is sweetened further for CHYS investors ...Drool Drool Drool Drool

Time will tell.


My main concern is the fact that Cytonn hasn't secured short term bridge financing or even sell equity stake to a global private equity.

Right now there is so much money is PE space that Cytonn shouldn't have to go to courts, delay payments and have their brand tarnished.

Investing is based on trust and brand, once that's tarnished, it is hard to get it cleaned. Either Cytonn.

1. Doesn't have the foresight to comprehend
2. Or doesn't want to open their books for diligence need in order to get the capital

Both are not good signs.
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poundfoolish
#1209 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 5:07:32 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
repost
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  | | Edit by user: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 5:59 PM | Reason: Not specified
VituVingiSana
#1210 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 10:05:44 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,347
Location: Nairobi
sparkly wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
In 2016, I have an email from them offering me 18% for 1 year fixed funds, while the prevailing t bill rate for the same tenor was between 11 and 12%.

I think they were a ponzi from the start, its just people did not catch onto it soon enough.



Chase Bank was offering up to 24%-26% on fixed deposits of 6 -12 months at that time. They simply took the money to Chase Bank took the 6%-8% margin plus a management fee of 2%.
And the whole house of cards came crumbling down.
Wow! When 1year T-Bills were 12%, Chase was offering 24%??? That was definitely not sustainable.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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