Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
Resurrection day
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
I repeat again: nobody can resurrect.
Remember a resurrected person for example should be same person that died before. We are not talking genes selection of a person and cloning, which is ideally artificial conception.
There are four means which have been used to bring up a being:
4. From a female alone
3. From a female and a male
2. From a male alone
1. From no male and no female
Yes, science can do 2, 3 and 4. Where 2 & 4 are cloning.
SCIENCE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO No.1
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
masukuma wrote:thuks wrote:tycho wrote:@AlphDoti, when you explain how the father and son aren't the same I can understand.
The problem arises when you try to differentiate the clone from the original. So I'll ask again, what makes them unequal or different, since as you've conceded, the difference isn't genetic? Certainly the father-son analogy doesn't help! Though not sure, but a human is a product of the genes and social / environmental influences. These influence would make it difficult to 'resurrect' @alph grandpa the differences in experiences will define a person - biologically the two would be the same but not as a person. things like what you were fed when you were young, what you saw and experienced. e.t.c. defined 'you'. even if it was possible to clone a grown-up. they would only be similar at the time of cloning and they would be more and more different as time went by - only being 'one' in their experiences. This argument isn't enough to differentiate between the clone and the original. Why? 1. The difference between genetics and experience isn't clear. For example, does genetics determine experience? To what extent? Do experiences determine genes? 2. If your argument is true then identity would depend on memory. But what would happen when memory is lost? 3. It's possible to have the same experiences for both the clone and the original even from birth. Would such a case make them differentiable? Experience and genetics in these cases wouldn't help to differentiate the clone from the original. What we have here is a hunch that they are different but we aren't clear about what differentiates them.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
AlphDoti wrote:I repeat again: nobody can resurrect.
Remember a resurrected person for example should be same person that died before. We are not talking genes selection of a person and cloning, which is ideally artificial conception.
There are four means which have been used to bring up a being:
4. From a female alone
3. From a female and a male
2. From a male alone
1. From no male and no female
Yes, science can do 2, 3 and 4. Where 2 & 4 are cloning.
SCIENCE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DO No.1 Unfortunately, for resurrection doesn't need proposition no.1. Again, proposition no.1 is vague. What's male/female? A set of Chromosomes? Then that would translate to all the propositions you've given being equivalent! Or, point one would be invalid for all conceivable entities... even God.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:
My response is that if it's at least theoretically conceivable that the technologies and methods of science as of today can solve this problem then @AlphDoti's argument will fail. And this indeed is the case.
Starting with possibility of a synthetic protocell, engineered dna and a quantum computer powerful enough and at least through an ingenious use of simultaneous and non-linear mathematical operations it's possible to recreate (resurrect, in fact) both great grandparents, and consequently, recreate(resurrect) the grandfather.
I have been following at least two approaches that Science is testing, towards achieving imortality. If we are lucky we might live to see both of them demonstrated convincingly: 1. Interfering with the human body by: slowing aging, cryogenics, cloning... for instance, to make people live longer. The biggest proponent of this approach is of course Ray Kurzweil 2. Isolating consciousness (the essence of what it means to be a human being) so that it can be saved on computer drives or transferred from one vehicle to another. Both of these approaches will have a massive impact on society - starting with a complete recasting of what it means to be a human 'being'- and the entire ethical moral, economic, religious, cultural and social edifice that has been constructed upon this foundation. I am not surprised that people like Alphadoti and his co-religionists are worried, or in denial. I think I would be too if I was invested in the supposed infallibility of a 2000 year old belief system. There's this movie, 'Risen', have you watched it? It's about a Roman investigator/tribune, who's tasked to find Christ's body... as I watched the movie I got another idea- there exists a science of the soul that's different from the sciences we're used to. The scriptures were written based on this science, that's why we're so lost when we read them by the eyes of the body system. Man has always had the power for immortality and ressurection... For our generation I suspect we're the victims of a lost system of knowledge and development. Maybe it's a nuance of tradition. For example, tradition close to this science in the Western world seems to pause at the stakes when Giordano Bruno was burnt. But now it's rising again and will be perhaps unstoppable. So counting the two possible paths you've mentioned I can see other methods probably even easier to execute...
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
|
tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=tycho] There's this movie, 'Risen', have you watched it? It's about a Roman investigator/tribune, who's tasked to find Christ's body... as I watched the movie I got another idea- there exists a science of the soul that's different from the sciences we're used to. The scriptures were written based on this science, that's why we're so lost when we read them by the eyes of the body system. Man has always had the power for immortality and resurrection... For our generation I suspect we're the victims of a lost system of knowledge and development. Maybe it's a nuance of tradition. For example, tradition close to this science in the Western world seems to pause at the stakes when Giordano Bruno was burnt. But now it's rising again and will be perhaps unstoppable. So counting the two possible paths you've mentioned I can see other methods probably even easier to execute... Tycho; I have not watched 'Risen' but, now that you mention it, I will look for the movie. I have highlighted one sentence above because in my opinion it goes to the core of this matter, namely: 'We can not die, we do not die.' We animate different vehicles from time time depending on need. But those vehicles are not 'us' anymore than our clothes are. We can't even spend more that 24 hours in our human body without collapsing from lack of sleep. I don't know where this belief that being alive equals animating our biological vehicles came from (although I do admit such a belief has definite evolutionary value). But it is not true. So you can actually see even the argument for resurrection is somewhat moot...resurrection from what? Perhaps 'waking up' would be a better term. But if such a discussion helps us to appreciate and maybe acknowledge our grater reality, one in which immortality is a given, not a gift accorded by a distant deity if we behave ourselves, then it is all good. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=tycho] There's this movie, 'Risen', have you watched it? It's about a Roman investigator/tribune, who's tasked to find Christ's body... as I watched the movie I got another idea- there exists a science of the soul that's different from the sciences we're used to. The scriptures were written based on this science, that's why we're so lost when we read them by the eyes of the body system. Man has always had the power for immortality and resurrection... For our generation I suspect we're the victims of a lost system of knowledge and development. Maybe it's a nuance of tradition. For example, tradition close to this science in the Western world seems to pause at the stakes when Giordano Bruno was burnt. But now it's rising again and will be perhaps unstoppable. So counting the two possible paths you've mentioned I can see other methods probably even easier to execute... Tycho; I have not watched 'Risen' but, now that you mention it, I will look for the movie. I have highlighted one sentence above because in my opinion it goes to the core of this matter, namely: 'We can not die, we do not die.' We animate different vehicles from time time depending on need. But those vehicles are not 'us' anymore than our clothes are. We can't even spend more that 24 hours in our human body without collapsing from lack of sleep. I don't know where this belief that being alive equals animating our biological vehicles came from (although I do admit such a belief has definite evolutionary value). But it is not true. So you can actually see even the argument for resurrection is somewhat moot... resurrection from what? Perhaps 'waking up' would be a better term. But if such a discussion helps us to appreciate and maybe acknowledge our grater reality, one in which immortality is a given, not a gift accorded by a distant deity if we behave ourselves, then it is all good. My understand of resurrection is: bring back a dead person back from its dust and ash or wax, make the body alive again. 
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
tycho wrote:Soon, it will be possible to resurrect the dead- hint: existence is now increasingly being seen as a simulation, and many other reasons thankfully under the scope that many seem to trust, science... Or think of the mummified remains of Egypt's early rulers. @tycho, can science make their bodies alive again and they can actually be themselves? This is what I mean by saying: IMPOSSIBLE.
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
|
AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:[quote=Wakanyugi][quote=tycho] There's this movie, 'Risen', have you watched it? It's about a Roman investigator/tribune, who's tasked to find Christ's body... as I watched the movie I got another idea- there exists a science of the soul that's different from the sciences we're used to. The scriptures were written based on this science, that's why we're so lost when we read them by the eyes of the body system. Man has always had the power for immortality and resurrection... For our generation I suspect we're the victims of a lost system of knowledge and development. Maybe it's a nuance of tradition. For example, tradition close to this science in the Western world seems to pause at the stakes when Giordano Bruno was burnt. But now it's rising again and will be perhaps unstoppable. So counting the two possible paths you've mentioned I can see other methods probably even easier to execute... Tycho; I have not watched 'Risen' but, now that you mention it, I will look for the movie. I have highlighted one sentence above because in my opinion it goes to the core of this matter, namely: 'We can not die, we do not die.' We animate different vehicles from time time depending on need. But those vehicles are not 'us' anymore than our clothes are. We can't even spend more that 24 hours in our human body without collapsing from lack of sleep. I don't know where this belief that being alive equals animating our biological vehicles came from (although I do admit such a belief has definite evolutionary value). But it is not true. So you can actually see even the argument for resurrection is somewhat moot... resurrection from what? Perhaps 'waking up' would be a better term. But if such a discussion helps us to appreciate and maybe acknowledge our grater reality, one in which immortality is a given, not a gift accorded by a distant deity if we behave ourselves, then it is all good. My understand of resurrection is: bring back a dead person back from its dust and ash or wax, make the body alive again.Understood. But that, I am arguing is a limited, in fact erroneous characterization. Our life does not start when we animate a body, nor does it end when we leave. In fact I would dare say, this is a cardinal teaching of most religions but has been misrepresented by interpreters of faith. Perhaps because the threat of death is such a powerful tool of control? "Before you were in your mothers womb, I knew you" says the Bible. As for bringing a 'dead person back from its dust and ash or wax body to life,' why would one even want to do that? OK I do get your point here but I repeat this a limiting characterization. The essence of who we are is not limited to the bodies we own, anymore than we are limited to the clothes we wear or the cars we drive. In fact we are not limited to the dimension we occupy. To our greater self then, time and space are mere illusions, meaning no start, no end. How then could life and death be real? Wherefore resurrection? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
|
AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:I have been watchingn and now I have to say something. I find it disturbing how Alphdoti is being slippery around our revered thinkers and they cannot pin him down even in one lousy point.
Wakanyugi, like an enzyme, has confessed he is not active on Alphdoti's substrate while Tycho is still 'preparing a response' whatever that means and Maskums is asking about amoebas .... C'mon guys, bana. Is it a slow day or what?
Where is the passion, the fire with which you have scorched believers and they ran back to their gods in tears weeping at the rought treatment you meted to them?
hehehehe. This argument seems to assume that Alphadoti is an intellectual lightweight, he is not. He just happens to like religion very much. As for me, I have a policy not to argue with religion, unless I am practicing my favorite hobby - baiting the cacophonous citizens of the Christian right. Plus I happen to like Mullah Alph since that day he resisted putting a fatwa on me after I had confessed to, uhm....liberating a Koran. @Wakanyugi, which one was it  Alphadoti: as a recovering Catholic, I only bait Christian Fundamentalists. From the way they screwed up my young mind, I believe they owe me that much. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
|
Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:I have been watchingn and now I have to say something. I find it disturbing how Alphdoti is being slippery around our revered thinkers and they cannot pin him down even in one lousy point.
Wakanyugi, like an enzyme, has confessed he is not active on Alphdoti's substrate while Tycho is still 'preparing a response' whatever that means and Maskums is asking about amoebas .... C'mon guys, bana. Is it a slow day or what?
Where is the passion, the fire with which you have scorched believers and they ran back to their gods in tears weeping at the rought treatment you meted to them?
hehehehe. This argument seems to assume that Alphadoti is an intellectual lightweight, he is not. He just happens to like religion very much. As for me, I have a policy not to argue with religion, unless I am practicing my favorite hobby - baiting the cacophonous citizens of the Christian right. Plus I happen to like Mullah Alph since that day he resisted putting a fatwa on me after I had confessed to, uhm....liberating a Koran. @Wakanyugi, which one was it Alphadoti: as a recovering Catholic, I only bait Christian Fundamentalists. From the way they screwed up my young mind, I believe they owe me that much. @wakanyugi, are you an atheist? If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
|
|
|
Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
Resurrection day
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|