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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:I think we now have enough material to draw conclusions on the matter of resurrection, souls and even probably, truth. And given my state of mind - I'm pretty exerted - I think I should start with the easiest problem to the hardest with ample time for rest in between...
The easiest problem is that of @AlphDoti's great grandmother I believe. It's @Alph's contention that though science can come up with his grandfather's clone, the effort would be incomplete because the scientists wouldn't be able to replicate the chromosomes from the great grandmother and great grandfather, and even conceive the grandfather in simulated space-time.
My response is that if it's at least theoretically conceivable that the technologies and methods of science as of today can solve this problem then @AlphDoti's argument will fail. And this indeed is the case.
Starting with possibility of a synthetic protocell, engineered dna and a quantum computer powerful enough and at least through an ingenious use of simultaneous and non-linear mathematical operations it's possible to recreate (resurrect, in fact) both great grandparents, and consequently, recreate(resurrect) the grandfather.
AlphDoti's objection has mainly relied on the incapacity of scientific method, but there's no reason to believe that the methods above are inexistent or can't be used.
Therefore his objections are very likely to be untrue. @tycho, you're making your own flawed conclusion. I said: science is not able to bring back my grandfather, the real him. And will never be able. Yes, they can do cloning, which is just a copy of him, but never the original him. I hope I have made it clear? Alph, if you go to your post you'll see that you've said that the difference between the real grandfather and the clone is based on genetics. And I have only shown that such a difference may not exist. If the difference isn't genetic, and as you've also admitted the clone has a soul, what then is the difference between your real grand father and his perfect clone? What I mean is, a clone of myself is not myself original. The difference between real grandfather and the clone is like father and son. One came form the other and not itself. Like father and son, even when both obviously have different pair of parents each? Or rather are you saying a son is the father's clone? No, son is not a clone of the father. But son has half the genes of the father. The son is a different individual from the father. Son = 23 chromosomes from father + 23 chromosomes from mother Clone = 23 chromosomes from original + 23 chromosomes from original Son ≠ father Son ≠ mother Clone ≠ original
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@AlphDoti, when you explain how the father and son aren't the same I can understand.
The problem arises when you try to differentiate the clone from the original. So I'll ask again, what makes them unequal or different, since as you've conceded, the difference isn't genetic? Certainly the father-son analogy doesn't help!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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tycho wrote:@AlphDoti, when you explain how the father and son aren't the same I can understand.
The problem arises when you try to differentiate the clone from the original. So I'll ask again, what makes them unequal or different, since as you've conceded, the difference isn't genetic? Certainly the father-son analogy doesn't help! Though not sure, but a human is a product of the genes and social / environmental influences. These influence would make it difficult to 'resurrect' @alph grandpa I care!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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thuks wrote:tycho wrote:@AlphDoti, when you explain how the father and son aren't the same I can understand.
The problem arises when you try to differentiate the clone from the original. So I'll ask again, what makes them unequal or different, since as you've conceded, the difference isn't genetic? Certainly the father-son analogy doesn't help! Though not sure, but a human is a product of the genes and social / environmental influences. These influence would make it difficult to 'resurrect' @alph grandpa the differences in experiences will define a person - biologically the two would be the same but not as a person. things like what you were fed when you were young, what you saw and experienced. e.t.c. defined 'you'. even if it was possible to clone a grown-up. they would only be similar at the time of cloning and they would be more and more different as time went by - only being 'one' in their experiences. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Anti_Burglar wrote:I have been watchingn and now I have to say something. I find it disturbing how Alphdoti is being slippery around our revered thinkers and they cannot pin him down even in one lousy point.
Wakanyugi, like an enzyme, has confessed he is not active on Alphdoti's substrate while Tycho is still 'preparing a response' whatever that means and Maskums is asking about amoebas .... C'mon guys, bana. Is it a slow day or what?
Where is the passion, the fire with which you have scorched believers and they ran back to their gods in tears weeping at the rought treatment you meted to them?
hehehehe. This argument seems to assume that Alphadoti is an intellectual lightweight, he is not. He just happens to like religion very much. As for me, I have a policy not to argue with religion, unless I am practicing my favorite hobby - baiting the cacophonous citizens of the Christian right. Plus I happen to like Mullah Alph since that day he resisted putting a fatwa on me after I had confessed to, uhm....liberating a Koran. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: User Joined: 1/20/2014 Posts: 3,528
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Was just passing by wasting time as i wait for furahaday time for phombe. Isorite  Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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tycho wrote:
My response is that if it's at least theoretically conceivable that the technologies and methods of science as of today can solve this problem then @AlphDoti's argument will fail. And this indeed is the case.
Starting with possibility of a synthetic protocell, engineered dna and a quantum computer powerful enough and at least through an ingenious use of simultaneous and non-linear mathematical operations it's possible to recreate (resurrect, in fact) both great grandparents, and consequently, recreate(resurrect) the grandfather.
I have been following at least two approaches that Science is testing, towards achieving imortality. If we are lucky we might live to see both of them demonstrated convincingly: 1. Interfering with the human body by: slowing aging, cryogenics, cloning... for instance, to make people live longer. The biggest proponent of this approach is of course Ray Kurzweil 2. Isolating consciousness (the essence of what it means to be a human being) so that it can be saved on computer drives or transferred from one vehicle to another. Both of these approaches will have a massive impact on society - starting with a complete recasting of what it means to be a human 'being'- and the entire ethical moral, economic, religious, cultural and social edifice that has been constructed upon this foundation. I am not surprised that people like Alphadoti and his co-religionists are worried, or in denial. I think I would be too if I was invested in the supposed infallibility of a 2000 year old belief system. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Wakanyugi wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:I have been watchingn and now I have to say something. I find it disturbing how Alphdoti is being slippery around our revered thinkers and they cannot pin him down even in one lousy point.
Wakanyugi, like an enzyme, has confessed he is not active on Alphdoti's substrate while Tycho is still 'preparing a response' whatever that means and Maskums is asking about amoebas .... C'mon guys, bana. Is it a slow day or what?
Where is the passion, the fire with which you have scorched believers and they ran back to their gods in tears weeping at the rought treatment you meted to them?
hehehehe. This argument seems to assume that Alphadoti is an intellectual lightweight, he is not. He just happens to like religion very much. As for me, I have a policy not to argue with religion, unless I am practicing my favorite hobby - baiting the cacophonous citizens of the Christian right. Plus I happen to like Mullah Alph since that day he resisted putting a fatwa on me after I had confessed to, uhm....liberating a Koran. @Wakanyugi, which one was it
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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masukuma wrote:thuks wrote:tycho wrote:@AlphDoti, when you explain how the father and son aren't the same I can understand.
The problem arises when you try to differentiate the clone from the original. So I'll ask again, what makes them unequal or different, since as you've conceded, the difference isn't genetic? Certainly the father-son analogy doesn't help! Though not sure, but a human is a product of the genes and social / environmental influences. These influence would make it difficult to 'resurrect' @alph grandpa the differences in experiences will define a person - biologically the two would be the same but not as a person. things like what you were fed when you were young, what you saw and experienced. e.t.c. defined 'you'. even if it was possible to clone a grown-up. they would only be similar at the time of cloning and they would be more and more different as time went by - only being 'one' in their experiences. Now this is a good discussion... @masukuma thank you for abandoning hoaxes from sites which are ever bitter with "others" and lack sobriety in all the articles...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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