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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:digitek1 wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:digitek1 wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:mv_ufanisi wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:If you know something to be true or not true then the knowledge is most likely obsolete. How does this fit in the cause-and-effect scheme of things? Assuming that the cause and effect model is valid - there are grounds for skepticism - the instance of knowledge is subjected to a process driven by the sociology of knowledge and forces of paridigm shifts as illustrated by Kuhn. Then again cause and effect is always conditional, and conditions will always vary. In a timeless Universe there can be no cause and effect. Everything that can ever BE, already IS. What we have is simply REVELATION, namely a process by which we apprehend and internalize different things and events that already exist (in other words 'create' them anew in our experience). This revelation process is conditioned on: a) a three dimensional reality, in which we have inserted the illusion of time (thus the erroneous perception of cause and effect etc) b) the limitations of the human Earth instrument (the body) with its sensory tools etc that simply limit how much experience we can process and c) the terms of our Earth walk, which require, for instance, that we handicap ourselves, say, by deliberately suppressing much of what we already know so as not to interfere with our 'learning' experience on Earth Is the universe currently timeless? I think it is. One of the accepted definitions of the Universe says that it contains everything that could possibly exist (Quantum physics, not Metaphysics). This includes all permutations of all things in all forms. In such a scenario, nothing came before anything else. Everything simply IS. The need to order things in linear form is a convention forced on humans by the need to overcome the limitations of 'living' in a 3 dimensional reality. It is no more real than space or gravity, for instance. No time. You need to have a lot of guts to tell people that time doesn't exist. Contrary to their daily experience. Not guts. So long as you have found Einstein, and let him into your personal life, it is easy.  "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one." [Einstein] to paraphrase einstein Time is relative but it does exist -since the speed of light is finite...hence the future is real, cause and effect is real The implication of this statement is even more strange. To a beam of light, time does not exist.Time and the speed of light have an inverse relationship. The faster you go, the slower time flows. To anything that travels at the speed of light time stops completely. It ceases to exist. What you call 'future' or 'past' is simply our interpretation of the reality of us traveling at sub-luminal speeds. If we could travel at the speed of light, such interpretation would not be necessary, or even noticeable. Time is not real. Light is invisible. For light to be known light has to be reflected off something. Hence, light depends on matter otherwise, there is 'no light', light does not exist. Hence light and it's speed are not a standard because they are relative. Are we sure that the concepts we build around light can stand? Can it then be said for certain for instance that we are not currently travelling at the speed of light through space? For light to be perceived there must be an observer, who unfortunately'interferes' with its nature For anything to exist there must be an observer. I believe the anthropic principle says something similar (the Universe exists because we do). So we could actually argue that the only constant is the observer (or consciousness as some have posited). Everything else is an illusion of our own creation. Hhmmm.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:digitek1 wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:digitek1 wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:mv_ufanisi wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Muriel wrote:tycho wrote:If you know something to be true or not true then the knowledge is most likely obsolete. How does this fit in the cause-and-effect scheme of things? Assuming that the cause and effect model is valid - there are grounds for skepticism - the instance of knowledge is subjected to a process driven by the sociology of knowledge and forces of paridigm shifts as illustrated by Kuhn. Then again cause and effect is always conditional, and conditions will always vary. In a timeless Universe there can be no cause and effect. Everything that can ever BE, already IS. What we have is simply REVELATION, namely a process by which we apprehend and internalize different things and events that already exist (in other words 'create' them anew in our experience). This revelation process is conditioned on: a) a three dimensional reality, in which we have inserted the illusion of time (thus the erroneous perception of cause and effect etc) b) the limitations of the human Earth instrument (the body) with its sensory tools etc that simply limit how much experience we can process and c) the terms of our Earth walk, which require, for instance, that we handicap ourselves, say, by deliberately suppressing much of what we already know so as not to interfere with our 'learning' experience on Earth Is the universe currently timeless? I think it is. One of the accepted definitions of the Universe says that it contains everything that could possibly exist (Quantum physics, not Metaphysics). This includes all permutations of all things in all forms. In such a scenario, nothing came before anything else. Everything simply IS. The need to order things in linear form is a convention forced on humans by the need to overcome the limitations of 'living' in a 3 dimensional reality. It is no more real than space or gravity, for instance. No time. You need to have a lot of guts to tell people that time doesn't exist. Contrary to their daily experience. Not guts. So long as you have found Einstein, and let him into your personal life, it is easy. "...for us physicists believe the separation between past, present, and future is only an illusion, although a convincing one." [Einstein] to paraphrase einstein Time is relative but it does exist -since the speed of light is finite...hence the future is real, cause and effect is real The implication of this statement is even more strange. To a beam of light, time does not exist.Time and the speed of light have an inverse relationship. The faster you go, the slower time flows. To anything that travels at the speed of light time stops completely. It ceases to exist. What you call 'future' or 'past' is simply our interpretation of the reality of us traveling at sub-luminal speeds. If we could travel at the speed of light, such interpretation would not be necessary, or even noticeable. Time is not real. Agreed upto the last part. since we cant travel at the speed of light time becomes relative. Speed = distance over time and the speed of light is actually a known constant-you cant go faster than that theoretically. Thank you. Now can you help me to convince Muriel? Laugh. Laugh. Laugh. I love this.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:
I have not yet got to the point of insisting there is time. I have not started recruiting yet. Registration bado kidogo. I am merely driving wedges for now.
So you insist the speed of light is constant.
Have you considered that the light sources are other passengers in the moving bus? Yes, the bus carried a lot of people. Some on wheelchairs, some seated, some walking to the front, some walking to the back ,,,,, One light source could be moving to the front, the other to the back so pray tell, how can it be constant?
Sometimes you sound almost like me. Yet when I insisted, sometime back, that all reality is illusion you and Tycho nearly run me out of Wazua town. Yes my fiend; there are no constants in the Universe. Welcome to the the rabbit hole. Then you say:Your theory requires a stationary point which for obvious reasons will be outside the universe. A standpoint existing outside the universe, our bus. If it does exist who, where, when, what, how is it? And say I:It is Einstein's theory of general relativity. You might recall that even he agonized over these questions. But science has to date been unable to disprove his basic tenets : light has a finite speed (in a vacuum) and nothing goes faster; this speed does not change irrespective of observer or location; time dilation etc etc Essentially light behaves as if space/time does not exist. My theory however is more radical. But let us not go into that again. I am sincerely sorry for the mistreatment we meted on you. Please accept my heartfelt apologies on behalf of my brother too. We in the brotherhood sometimes sound almost like each other, that is why we are brothers. Grin. You may have given too much weight to my wedge that there are no constants inside the universe at the expense of my other subtle point that there is a constant outside the universe. Science has been unable to disprove Eintein's theory for the simple reason it has not accessed and utilised this constant that is outside the universe. That is why it still insists 'nothing goes faster than light' among other things. Science today is like Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot content that nothing goes faster than his 2.5mph contraption. How radical is your theory? Is it more 'radical' than mine?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 2/3/2010 Posts: 1,797 Location: Kenya
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The Umvelt of reality I may be wrong..but then I could be right
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi,
Surely, how and why am I your fiend? Why do you say such hurtful words?
Please don't leave. Who will I talk to or even recruit when you go like that?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi,
Surely, how and why am I your fiend? Why do you say such hurtful words?
Please don't leave. Who will I talk to or even recruit when you go like that? Sorry I have distracted the last few days. I would not leave without saying kwaheri "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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Muriel wrote:[quote=Wakanyugi][quote=Muriel]
" I am sincerely sorry for the mistreatment we meted on you." Apology accepted " Please accept my heartfelt apologies on behalf of my brother too." I am not sure whether to accept Tycho's apology. I am not in a charitable mood today. However, let me think about it. You may have given too much weight to my wedge that there are no constants inside the universe at the expense of my other subtle point that there is a constant outside the universe.The definition of the Universe in and of itself is 'that which contains all.' It does not have an inside or an outside. Thus there can not be a constant outside the Universe. There is no outside. " How radical is your theory? Is it more 'radical' than mine?" Not radical to me but many people find it hard to accept. Its main premise is this: "The Universe does really not exist." QED. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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I'm not aware of the need to apologize. But I'd appreciate it if the need is brought to my attention.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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tycho wrote:I'm not aware of the need to apologize. But I'd appreciate it if the need is brought to my attention. Almost running someone, a brother, Wakanyugi, out of Wazua town is need enough for me.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi,
Surely, how and why am I your fiend? Why do you say such hurtful words?
Please don't leave. Who will I talk to or even recruit when you go like that? Sorry I have distracted the last few days. I would not leave without saying kwaheri Pewa juice! Of course you know there is no escaping from here. It was easier from Alcatraz or Sobibor. Not here. Not ever. Laugh.
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