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Home owners stare at Sh16bn losses
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/9/2008 Posts: 5,389
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a4architect.com wrote:@alma, for once, breath in slowly and try to see the bigger picture. I am not so myopic to look at the money the houses are making as rent. Am looking at what the houses are contributing to the national tax pool. They create job opportunities to hundreds, ensure hundreds travel to and from work with ease hence more productivity, increase the tax bracket to both county and national govt etc etc.
Now lets argue from the points above. How does kevevapi benefit the people of kenya while utilising the land? They can still make their vaccines in the remaining 70 acres or move to the thousands of lands they own around nairobi.
Am waiting to hear your answer with emphasis on the NATIONAL BUDGET contribution. Kevevapi supports the livelihoods of millions of pastoralist communities and livestock farmers through the vaccines/drugs they produce. KEVEVAPI also provides employment to hundreds of kenyans, from research scientists with PhDs to sweepers.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/12/2006 Posts: 1,554
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a4architect.com wrote:@poundfoolish, well said. The agric cabinet secretary said he needs it back for more agricultural purposes. He already has 70 acres but needs more. Agric ministry also owns thousands of acres from shade hotel/raila residence all the way to ngong town.
The lynch mob mentality will surely deter investments in kenya. I would not be surprised if the agric ministry goes to court and is awarded an oder to demolish, as it happend in syokimau. In other countries, the syokimau situation would have led to the resignation of the president. Even in this kevevapi situation, by now Pres. Uhuru should have summoned the cabinet secretary and explained to him that to the ordinary citizen, there is no difference between commisioner of lands/ministry of lands/ city council/kevevapi and nssf. These all represent government ans govt should cordinate with one direction. Without this, then this creates situation for anarchy, where @alma and @jagernaut will arm themselves to demolish the kevevapi houses, and the house occupants fight them back, with kevevapi with its own set of police, ministry of lands with its own police and city concil with the council askaris. @a4a.com there is a difference thats the reason Hon Amos Kimunya is in court standing at the dock as mshtakiwa. Otherwise it will be impunity
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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Jamani wrote:@a4a.com would you kindly run the video clip posted above. I have seen it. To me this is innuendo. Paul Ndungu of the Ndungu land report expects all kenyans to know the ndungu land report in detail. Even if the land is in the land report, kenyans are usually desperate for land and for a good reason.Most land available is being hoarded by govt agencies eg kevevapi, hence creating an unnaturally high demand. To me solutions lie by kenyans looking at the larger nationl picture i.e how is the economy benefiting, not small emotive issues like gachanja and his clande. Of course someone had to benefit but their benefit is very small compared to how the national budget , including you @ alma, benefits. When land stays idle, it creates unemployment, creates high rents due to scarcity of houses etc, whereby you @alma and other kenyans are the loosers. When land is developed, whether after being stolen as in the case of kevevapi, it benefits all kenyans more than it benefits gachanja and his clande. Currently, the ministry of agric land , thousands of acres, from shade hotel to ngong town is idle. It causes more unemployment, high rents, insecurity, higher infrastructure investment costs in far away places etc. Even if @alma was to somehow manage to get the ownership and then resell to developers, you will not gain more than how the economy as a whole will benefit. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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jaggernaut wrote:a4architect.com wrote:@alma, for once, breath in slowly and try to see the bigger picture. I am not so myopic to look at the money the houses are making as rent. Am looking at what the houses are contributing to the national tax pool. They create job opportunities to hundreds, ensure hundreds travel to and from work with ease hence more productivity, increase the tax bracket to both county and national govt etc etc.
Now lets argue from the points above. How does kevevapi benefit the people of kenya while utilising the land? They can still make their vaccines in the remaining 70 acres or move to the thousands of lands they own around nairobi.
Am waiting to hear your answer with emphasis on the NATIONAL BUDGET contribution. Kevevapi supports the livelihoods of millions of pastoralist communities and livestock farmers through the vaccines/drugs they produce. KEVEVAPI also provides employment to hundreds of kenyans, from research scientists with PhDs to sweepers. @jaggernaut, how does kevevapi, being alienated from the said land, hinder them carrying out the support you mentioned above? Also, quantify this support in monetary terms. Kevevapi has to wait for me and you and @alma and the rest to pay tax for it to operate and pay its staff. The tax money that they use has a good chunk coming from the same people they now want to evict. Talk of biting the hand that you.. If these guys can ask for a refund of all tax monies and benefits created by them using their hard work to aquire the houses, govt would go on its knees begging them to continue staying. Kenya is 50 years old. We have still not understood the concept of government well. Any method that increases the tax revenue should be encouraged by govt, not discouraged. KEVEVAPI survives courtesy of the same house owners at their land. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/12/2006 Posts: 1,554
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a4architect.com wrote:Jamani wrote:@a4a.com would you kindly run the video clip posted above. I have seen it. To me this is innuendo. Paul Ndungu of the Ndungu land report expects all kenyans to know the ndungu land report in detail. Even if the land is in the land report, kenyans are usually desperate for land and for a good reason.Most land available is being hoarded by govt agencies eg kevevapi, hence creating an unnaturally high demand. To me solutions lie by kenyans looking at the larger nationl picture i.e how is the economy benefiting, not small emotive issues like gachanja and his clande. Of course someone had to benefit but their benefit is very small compared to how the national budget , including you @ alma, benefits. When land stays idle, it creates unemployment, creates high rents due to scarcity of houses etc, whereby you @alma and other kenyans are the loosers. When land is developed, whether after being stolen as in the case of kevevapi, it benefits all kenyans more than it benefits gachanja and his clande. Currently, the ministry of agric land , thousands of acres, from shade hotel to ngong town is idle. It causes more unemployment, high rents, insecurity, higher infrastructure investment costs in far away places etc. Even if @alma was to somehow manage to get the ownership and then resell to developers, you will not gain more than how the economy as a whole will benefit. What you advocate for is impunity and anachy.... So long as one steals and puts up houses to benefit themseives by selling then thats okay to you... Where are your morals? Seems you care more for your achiterual fees than whats right or wrong
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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@architect, you should be among the professionals advising people to do due diligence on land, because, like you put it, Kenyans are desperate for a piece. But what you are advocating is, "Oh, go ahead, buy and build, even if you aren't sure if its a clean title, you'll benefit the economy." Runda, Syokimau Kenyans endured the pain and loss and the billions spent there ended up in the professionals' pockets. You shouldn't be encouraging the same. Stop skirting around the issue of the economy gaining when in actual sense that's supporting impunity and illegalities. Be an ethical professional. Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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i hope that @a4 you understand the meaning of land ownership. It means that as long as I'm within county by laws, I can do anything with it. That includes grazing my 2 cows on 1000 acres. I'm sure you could more with it but that's my land not yours. You mentioned if this was to happen in other countries. Please sir, this only happens in Kenya. Where land law is taken for granted. A proper title is the livelihood of the economy. As for kevevapi making less money than the 600 houses in terms of economic growth in the country. Please advice with proper reference exactly where you got that idea from. I can not say for or against as I don't have the figures for impact of veterinary services in the country to half the population vs the impact of some 600 bad investors losing their 10 million. So far we have debunked the following myths you were creating 1. that the land was acquired from gov't So lets now work on the economic growth of kevavapi vs the fortunes of 600 bad investors. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/9/2008 Posts: 5,389
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@A4arc, do you also want to recommend that we should also invade land belonging to muthaiga, karen, runda etc residents because their houses are only utilizing 20% of their 1/2 acre plots, and we can use the remaining 80% more efficiently by developing it...and utilizing the infrastructure.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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@jus blazin..the only unethical situation i can see is you advocating/being a part of a lynch mob to demolish people's hard earned property. Architects dont advise on legality of land. Architects advice on feasibility of land. Legality is done by conveyancing lawyers. Show me where am advocating anyone to buy and build without doing due diligence. Here we are discussing about projects that have an effect on the economy, and how the country can plan its land use, not one person going to build his house. Runda's case was compulsory acquisition, for the good of all 40 million kenyans. Syokimau case was for the detrement of kenya. same as kevevapi case. Am looking at this from the point of shaping policy , so that in future, as the country moves on, people will look at the benefit to the country as opposed to the benefit to the individual. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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jaggernaut wrote:@A4arc, do you also want to recommend that we should also invade land belonging to muthaiga, karen, runda etc residents because their houses are only utilizing 20% of their 1/2 acre plots, and we can use the remaining 80% more efficiently by developing it...and utilizing the infrastructure. @jagernaut, dont make me laugh...These bylaws in Karen have been done after very well thought out planning by professionals whom i respect. I see the logic in having karen, muthaiga etc to have low ground coverage %. This enables the plots to conserve trees.forests which act as carbon sinks. This is the same reason i suggested that if nairobi national park can be converted to residential, the residential should be even lower ground coverage to enable more trees/forest cover hence act as a better carbon sink than the grassland. These low densities in karen enable you and me to get fresh oxygen as we type away behind our computers. It looks like for one to see my logic, it might take years. The best way to see and understand my logic, is to study the land planning laws as they are in USA, Denmark, Japan and China. Its not by coincidence that these countries are so productive, its a matter of proper land use planning. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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