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On social class
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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I believe that humans are designed or design themselves to fit in a template of social classes, and that pawns, are also, predetermined, and thus in ancient language, 'God ordained'.
Look at the bees, or ants, or any social animals. There's always a hierarchy.
And so is it for humans!
The problem then is how different societies, find the right people for the right task. Such that, it's probable that a society may fail to have a way of assigning social class that is optimal.
Such that the wrong people end up getting the wrong roles.
That is how a society degenerates.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,921
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Guessed right In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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tycho wrote:I believe that humans are designed or design themselves to fit in a template of social classes, and that pawns, are also, predetermined, and thus in ancient language, 'God ordained'.
Look at the bees, or ants, or any social animals. There's always a hierarchy.
And so is it for humans!
The problem then is how different societies, find the right people for the right task. Such that, it's probable that a society may fail to have a way of assigning social class that is optimal.
Such that the wrong people end up getting the wrong roles.
That is how a society degenerates. England in the 2018 world cup If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:I believe that humans are designed or design themselves to fit in a template of social classes, and that pawns, are also, predetermined, and thus in ancient language, 'God ordained'.
Look at the bees, or ants, or any social animals. There's always a hierarchy.
And so is it for humans!
The problem then is how different societies, find the right people for the right task. Such that, it's probable that a society may fail to have a way of assigning social class that is optimal.
Such that the wrong people end up getting the wrong roles.
That is how a society degenerates. it's all part of the fiction... if indeed humans were designed to do what it is you are saying it would have been quite natural to fall in line. as natural as say eating or farting or walking. Humans imagined and made up classes and social order. The rules to maintain social order are not natural to humans - they must be taught! Society must put conscious effort towards enforcing this order. A good example is say... back in the days of the Sumerians where Hammurabi crafted some 282 laws all of which were in his own words chosen by "the gods Anu and Enlil, for the enhancement of the well-being of the people". It placed different penalties when a 'superior man' was killed to what one was supposed to pay when a 'commoner' or a commoner woman or slave was 'worth'. Much later akina Thomas Jeffeson came up with a different 'idea' as he and company held that "these 'truths' to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - No commoner no Superior man... just all men (white men then). The idea was polished when Negros were considered "Men" as well as women joined the ranks of the referred to "Men". all these ideas that have been "inspired by God" are taught to humans and then codified into "laws" and then we have lawyers doing their bidding. The very fact that we have a thread called "On social class" and not whether humans fart or poop is an indicator that it's not as "natural" as you would think of it. Not as natural as say the laws of gravity! Researchers have taken time to study ants and bees and they continue to get marveled by the intricate nature of these societies. each bee does exactly what it's supposed to do. No bee aspires to be something else. While there are nursing bees, worker bees, drones, soldiers, queens - there are no lawyer bees or teacher bees. The order of bees is natural - no arguments among them on workers rights or whether drones should live fuller lives - no... their order is in their DNA. Not human order - human order is a product of our inter-subjective consciousness - a good product... like plastic but not a natural one. So there are no "wrong people in the wrong roles" - there are "WHAT WE CONSIDER wrong people in the wrong roles". our consideration is colored by the goggles we view our reality using. SOCIAL ORDER WAS MADE UP IN THE SAME WAY WE MADE UP MANY OTHER THINGS LIKE COUNTRIES,ROLES, HUMAN RIGHTS,GOOD MANNERS, LAWS, GENDER, RULES OF FOOTBALL. This is not meant to trivialize these thing but to remove them from a pedestal of "natural" things. Therefore, the phrase 'God ordained' comes in the long line of similar statements that are nothing but another way of shifting responsibility of the not so palatable outcome of your ideas and thoughts from you (the creator of the idea) to God. Whom of course we cannot question! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Allow me to restate your argument more 'formally'.
1. There are natural things and fictional things
2. Natural things exclude fictional ones in the same set
3. Bees/ants are natural and non-fictional
4. Humans are not like bees and therefore are fictional
5. Humans can perceive the non-fictional and the fictional but such perception is purely inter-subjective
If, I have misstated anything, then please correct me. Or if I haven't stated an important part of your argument please add that argument as simply as possible.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/22/2008 Posts: 2,716
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tycho wrote:Allow me to restate your argument more 'formally'.
1. There are natural things and fictional things
2. Natural things exclude fictional ones in the same set
3. Bees/ants are natural and non-fictional
4. Humans are not like bees and therefore are fictional
5. Humans can perceive the non-fictional and the fictional but such perception is purely inter-subjective
If, I have misstated anything, then please correct me. Or if I haven't stated an important part of your argument please add that argument as simply as possible. Masukuma's argument does not need to be restated. It is beautiful and clear just the way it is.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Kusadikika wrote:tycho wrote:Allow me to restate your argument more 'formally'.
1. There are natural things and fictional things
2. Natural things exclude fictional ones in the same set
3. Bees/ants are natural and non-fictional
4. Humans are not like bees and therefore are fictional
5. Humans can perceive the non-fictional and the fictional but such perception is purely inter-subjective
If, I have misstated anything, then please correct me. Or if I haven't stated an important part of your argument please add that argument as simply as possible. Masukuma's argument does not need to be restated. It is beautiful and clear just the way it is. Some of us, albeit we are few, know the importance of distilling normal language to formal logic structures. And who apparently take a different view of what is beautiful and simple. I'll assume my restatement is correct then. For which I will add that @masukuma's ideas or argument is ill conceived and erroneous.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Kusadikika wrote:tycho wrote:Allow me to restate your argument more 'formally'.
1. There are natural things and fictional things
2. Natural things exclude fictional ones in the same set
3. Bees/ants are natural and non-fictional
4. Humans are not like bees and therefore are fictional
5. Humans can perceive the non-fictional and the fictional but such perception is purely inter-subjective
If, I have misstated anything, then please correct me. Or if I haven't stated an important part of your argument please add that argument as simply as possible. Masukuma's argument does not need to be restated. It is beautiful and clear just the way it is.  - thanks @Kusadikika! I don't know why I am doing this but here we go Quote: 1. There are natural things and fictional things - YES
2. Natural things exclude fictional ones in the same set - YES
3. Bees/ants are natural and non-fictional - YES. bees are natural and their behavior is natural - similar to the sucking of a nipple by a baby! no infant is told that sucking the nipple is good for them - they just SUCK. no classes for sucking nipples.
4. Humans are not like bees and therefore are fictional NO... this is where you get it wrong. I didn't say HUMANS ARE FICTIONAL.. I said human behavior is guided by fiction. ideology... when I say fiction I don't mean it in a disparaging manner. I just mean... ideas that have been MADE UP.. cooked by the brain... Humans mimic bees by employing these MADE UP ideas and aligning their behavior with these ideas. they get almost similar outcome. please note... WHILE THE IDEA IS FICTION (MADE UP... NOT NATURAL) THE OUTCOME IS NOT. Humans are not like bees in that their behavior is not guided by natural order but rather by artificial order that must be instilled into human beings while they are growing up.... and enforced by lawyers
5. Humans can perceive the non-fictional and the fictional but such perception is purely inter-subjectiveit's not guaranteed... humans can perceive newer fiction not old fiction. So if today I started a religion called CHAFYAHERE whose deity is created the universe by his nose. he sneezed it to being and we adherents of it sneeze at end of petitions to him in order to make him consider our petition. - you would laugh... but if I taught that to my kids and their kids in total exclusion of any other fiction. I may have a religion to reckon with. but I digress... humans perceive both fiction and non-fiction. what is not natural is debated... constitutions, laws, rights. not whether if you stand on top of a building and take one step too far - you will fall. not all fiction is intersubjective - many things fail to catch on. they die with their founders but if they out live their founders and have more and more adherents... they may just survive... unless of course the whole group that 'believed' this fiction is killed. a good example is 'human rights' the more people who believe in it and act on it - the more stable it becomes. at one point there was no concept of human rights and now it's everywhere. we are teaching ourselves these things. please note... the OUTCOME of collectively engaging in certain fiction as opposed to others IS NOT FICTION
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Thanks @Masukuma.
1. 'Natural' and 'fictional' are indistinguishable in most cases that we may need to reconsider what they mean.
But in this case, you distinguish 'natural' from 'fictional' using the parameter of 'teaching'.
You believe that an infant isn't taught to suckle the mama's breast for example. Yet when we look at an infant and how it is introduced to the oral stage and how it progresses there's no mistake that an infant is taught to suckle.
First the mother must bring the infant's mouth into contact with the breasts. This is important in teaching, because it's called prompting.
Let's say for instance that we can't be too sure that the infant doesn't in fact know that breasts are for sucking, and that though it knows, the muscles in the hands are too weak to make the move...
But then that would be contrary to what experience and scientific research shows about psycho-motor development. When brain development and other organs are asynchronous then the organism can't adapt to it's environment appropriately.
So, an infant is taught to suck the mothers breast.
And there's also extensive literature on ants and bees, and many other animals that teach their young ones lessons beginning from the most basic things to complex maneuvers.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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2. A critical question we may also ask is: Do colonies of a similar species of ants exhibit behavioral and any other differences?
The answer is 'Yes'.
So if there are differences in colony characteristics, even in what we may define as 'the same field', for example in the same farm.
Wouldn't we then say that the ants are engaged in fictionalizing?
And How would we account for the source of this 'fictionalizing'?
Finally, how is ant fictionalizing different from human fictionalizing?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Proverbs 6:6-8 King James Version (KJV)
6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.
If this is true, and recent research tends to prove this assertion as true, then how come there's a hierarchy?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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Let's not nitpick. the difference between ants and humans is that HUMANS ARE CAPABLE OF HIERARCHY... capable of many things including being social... being rational. being irrational. being cooperative and being uncooperative. being emotional.. being unemotional e.t.c. humans are CAPABLE OF ALL THOSE THINGS WE ATTRIBUTE THEM OF 'BEING'. depending on the prevailing ideology and with reinforcement - humans apply themselves to work on certain trait. The same species not too long ago applied themselves at killing each other and over 70 million of it's own were killed. why? not because the individual soldiers doing the killing had grudges - no... they had to obey 'orders'. heck during world war 1 - troupes were fighting on Christmas eve... had a truce and played football together on Christmas day and went on with fighting on boxing day. The differences we see in countries are simply because of this. What brand of fiction one chose to apply. Remember not all of these fictions.. (ideologies to those who feel offended) are the same towards working towards a certain end. a bunch of people in a territory called themselves USA and applied a different set of 'ideologies' from the people south of that place and ended up with different results. We Africans have subjected ourselves to obeying certain fictions that have ended us up where we are. heck no 2 neighboring countries are the same. Kenya applied itself to a different type of fiction and still is to what was applied south, east, west and north. Same human beings. different fiction.... sorry 'ideology'. bees don't have that. same species of bees or ants don't have 'variety'. same hive here and a hive 2 kms away have exactly the same structure. the same way children in Kenya suckle the same as children in Kiribati. People in Mongolia mate (the act of in and out) in the same way as people in Jamaica. People in Canada walk in the same way as people from tribes in Papua New Guinea that have never seen outside human beings for years. Do they cook the same? no! <-- subject of fiction. Do they both have women? Yes! Do they treat 'women' the same? no! so babies suckle the same? yes! it's our responsibility to pick the right fiction... sorry ideology that works towards a certain goal and apply ourselves at it. Singapore and Malasyia are next door neighbours - singapore has less than 6 million people. almost the same as number of luhyas in kenya. Malaysia has 27million people - over 4 times the number of people in Singapore. Yet Singapore has a higher GDP than Malaysia... they are next to each other. why? SAME HUMAN BEINGS DIFFERENT TYPE OF FICTION. so don't come here supporting your hierarchical structure telling us it's natural and 'God Ordained' and that's is the sole reason we should follow it - show us examples of WHAT IT CAN DO WHEN WE APPLY OURSELVES TO YOUR VERSION OF FICTION and you will not get an argument from me.... because that's the type of fiction I follow. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@Masukuma, the new post you've made is just the same as the initial one. And my response is on the posts above.
The only things I can add are:
3. Humans are just like ants in the measure of organization. To be human is to relate to and with others who have to be structured in a certain way that is restricted to a population set.
That population set is the equivalent of an ant colony. And it has to be natural.
4. Language is an instance of something that is both 'natural' and 'fictional'
Hence we need not start talking about 'what fiction' to have etc. What we're doing here is simply that regardless of the language dynamics of a settlement or civilization, there has to be a universal set of all possible languages.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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There can never be an ant without a colony.
And neither a human without a settlement.
Therefore the first ant or the first human can only be met in abstracted space-time. The dream-vision.
The dream-vision is the true ruler of ants and humans, and all other living things.
It is the allotter of roles and classes.
Hierarchy is the dispersal of light in a prism. And the prism is the context.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,822 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:There can never be an ant without a colony.
And neither a human without a settlement.
Therefore the first ant or the first human can only be met in abstracted space-time. The dream-vision.
The dream-vision is the true ruler of ants and humans, and all other living things.
It is the allotter of roles and classes.
Hierarchy is the dispersal of light in a prism. And the prism is the context. I how I respond to some of the posts here All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:There can never be an ant without a colony.
And neither a human without a settlement.
Therefore the first ant or the first human can only be met in abstracted space-time. The dream-vision.
The dream-vision is the true ruler of ants and humans, and all other living things.
It is the allotter of roles and classes.
Hierarchy is the dispersal of light in a prism. And the prism is the context. I how I respond to some of the posts here Where is that friend of yours if not, dead? Reasoning is not a strength of yours. Maybe preaching. There's a social class for folks like you. You know which one?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Most wazuans belong to the 'soldier' social class. But from different colonies.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/8/2008 Posts: 1,575
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tycho wrote:Most wazuans belong to the 'soldier' social class. But from different colonies. Strength in numbers, the king wouldn't be without them I care!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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thuks wrote:tycho wrote:Most wazuans belong to the 'soldier' social class. But from different colonies. Strength in numbers, the king wouldn't be without them True. Their status is highly appreciated.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/26/2007 Posts: 6,514
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Swenani wrote:tycho wrote:I believe that humans are designed or design themselves to fit in a template of social classes, and that pawns, are also, predetermined, and thus in ancient language, 'God ordained'.
Look at the bees, or ants, or any social animals. There's always a hierarchy.
And so is it for humans!
The problem then is how different societies, find the right people for the right task. Such that, it's probable that a society may fail to have a way of assigning social class that is optimal.
Such that the wrong people end up getting the wrong roles.
That is how a society degenerates. England in the 2018 world cup Sonko as governor Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
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