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Building costs vs 6 months ago
siafu33
#1 Posted : Friday, April 15, 2011 8:01:06 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/19/2011
Posts: 19
Location: Nairobi
Dear Wazuans,

6 months ago I did much research and found quotes varied from 37k-45k per sq. m. for highest end contractors...am looking to build shortly.

Since then, I have been abroad a lot, Egypt, Bahrain, Lybia has occurred, oil prices up etc..

Are contractors staying competitive or have they used these occurrences to justify major increases?

Am curious if anyone has the latest figures, so I can compare with my contractors.

Thanks!


S

Vj
#2 Posted : Friday, April 15, 2011 9:12:36 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/6/2010
Posts: 97
Location: nairobi, kenya
Depends on what you are building and where. I'm a property developer and the contract prices for my current projects are as follows, the unit costs include external works like parking, swimming pool etc:

Luxury apartments and duplexes:48,450 (contract awarded march 2010)
Standard finish apartments:32,700 (contract awarded june 2010)
Standard finish apartments:32,000 (contract awarded march 2011)

It also depends on who the contractor is, for my latest project I got a mid-sized contractor and negotiated a better price than what i got last year from a bigger contractor.

I have an office block which is currently under tendering, so will know the price range for office blocks in around a week, though i paid around 35000 for an office block in 2008.
Before you can be be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
siafu33
#3 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 1:08:31 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/19/2011
Posts: 19
Location: Nairobi
Vj hello,

Thanks a lot for your comprehensive feedback. Very illuminating - if you would post the latest figures for your office block tender v the 35k it cost back in '08 I'd be very grateful.
earthvoice
#4 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 3:06:41 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 257
Also looking to build in the near future, and it would be quite useful to know some of these contractors you refer to, if you don't mind, so we can shop around and get quotes too!
"All intelligent investing is value investing -- acquiring more than you are paying for. You must value the business in order to value the stock." - Charlie Munger.
MatataMingi
#5 Posted : Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:02:46 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/17/2009
Posts: 398
Location: Where everyone knows you
@ vj. Thanks for the info.

I am thinking of a standalone 3 bedroom bunglow. 2 floors plus a rooftop area. Are costs similar to apartments.

Further is it different depending on location. e.g Nairobi Vs Mombasa North coast .

Regards
SAC Cohen
#6 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 4:03:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/3/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Nairobi
Vj wrote:
Depends on what you are building and where. I'm a property developer and the contract prices for my current projects are as follows, the unit costs include external works like parking, swimming pool etc:

Luxury apartments and duplexes:48,450 (contract awarded march 2010)
Standard finish apartments:32,700 (contract awarded june 2010)
Standard finish apartments:32,000 (contract awarded march 2011)

It also depends on who the contractor is, for my latest project I got a mid-sized contractor and negotiated a better price than what i got last year from a bigger contractor.

I have an office block which is currently under tendering, so will know the price range for office blocks in around a week, though i paid around 35000 for an office block in 2008.


@Vj,
could give more infor. especially on the luxury apts... the reason i ask for more is that 48,450/- per sqm may mean different things in a 5mX5mroom, for example are all the rooms ensuite? and how many rooms? this i believe will give a clear est as opposded to a 5mX5m room with no extras e.g Bath but with high end finishing...
Pablo
#7 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 5:09:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 567
Location: Nairobi
Ati 35k ati 45k.
Just completing my 430SqM house in outskirts of Nairobi. Total building cost will not go beyond 15k per sqM. Finishings are moderate high. Wood block floors, MDF kitchen cabinets, normal polished tiles in 4 bathrooms.

See http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...aspx?g=posts&t=6075 where this this was discussed at length. U can inboxx me at pnganga at yahoo dot com.

SAC Cohen
#8 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 5:21:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/3/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Nairobi
Pablo wrote:
Ati 35k ati 45k.
Just completing my 430SqM house in outskirts of Nairobi. Total building cost will not go beyond 15k per sqM. Finishings are moderate high. Wood block floors, MDF kitchen cabinets, normal polished tiles in 4 bathrooms.

See http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...aspx?g=posts&t=6075 where this this was discussed at length. U can inboxx me at pnganga at yahoo dot com.


@Pablo,
If you were to cost your man hours, i.e. in the way of opportunity cost, how would you cost it?
Pablo
#9 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 5:44:36 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 567
Location: Nairobi
Being at the Site every saturday for the last 18 months. Say that is 72 - 80 days. say I estimate my time at even 20,000 per day thats only 1,600,000. Add that to the building cost @15k per SqM = 8.05M.
This still works out to 18,700/- per SqM. Where guys get 35k - 48k per SqM. I really dont know.

PS
Are you guys saying that a small 2Br hse of 90SqM will cost 3.5M - 4.5M to build???
SAC Cohen
#10 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 6:05:23 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/3/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Nairobi
Pablo wrote:
Being at the Site every saturday for the last 18 months. Say that is 72 - 80 days. say I estimate my time at even 20,000 per day thats only 1,600,000. Add that to the building cost @15k per SqM = 8.05M.
This still works out to 18,700/- per SqM. Where guys get 35k - 48k per SqM. I really dont know.

PS
Are you guys saying that a small 2Br hse of 90SqM will cost 3.5M - 4.5M to build???


Completed 8 3Br bungalows (110Sqm) at 21,543,180.20. Additional costs such as more driveway, professional costs and common areas were higher. This was self-build but the man hours obviously were much more. Initially had tendered but lowest bid came at 26.5m.

Something seriously wrong with our contracting system in Kenya.

Ka-Dry
#11 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 6:26:07 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/15/2011
Posts: 33
Location: Nairobi
I agree here that there is something wrong with contractors in Kenya.

A lot of inefficiencies in the supply chain is passed on to clients just like that.

That's why you see some obnoxious house prices being quoted all over.

Am just about to finish a 4 bedroom Maisonette with garage Approx 270SqM (standard compact design) for 4.5m which should work out to 17K per square meter.

Followed an advice posted here last year on the same
Vj
#12 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 7:11:27 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/6/2010
Posts: 97
Location: nairobi, kenya
@Siafu: the tender is opening on Thursday so will let you know of the outcome.

@earthvoice: I don't think it would be fair for me to give out details about contractors on a public forum, however if you provide me with your e.mail i would be glad to share them with you.

@Matatamingi: it should cost you between 20000-25000 for a stand alone bungalow, this cost is for a well finished bungalow i.e imported tiles, pitched stone finish etc.

@SAC Cohen: The luxury apartments are around 325sqm, 4 bedroom all ensuite, with german bathrooms (Hansgrohe) and kitchens (Nobilia). Spanish tiles in the common areas, a choice of floor finishes for the main apartment, decorative paints and so on. external amenities include: large swimming pool, party hall, 3 parking's per apartment, integrated security system, elevators, generator, borehole etc. The price seems high but i think its justified given the high quality of finishes e.g a single toilet set costs around 75,000. For this particular project i've sold all the units for between 35-50M, but trust me convincing someone to buy an apartment for the price of a bungalow is one of the most challenging tasks i've ever encountered.

@ Pablo: Your figure seems low for standard finishes, but maybe you can pull it off. I've partnered with one of my former employee's to build low cost homes in athi river and he manages the construction himself, we are getting a construction cost about 15,000 (this doesn't include any external works). But the quality is way inferior to what i call standard i.e wavy palster, use of second grade tiles, walls not following a straight path etc. There is no way i can give such quality to someone paying 16-18 M for an apartment. Thus if you want quality you have to pay for it, and my standard apartments have things like elevators, swimming pool, borehole, pitched stone external finishes, aluminium windows, Hwangsung wardrobes and kitchens. With all this its very easy for the price to climb to 32000 per sqm.

Before you can be be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
earthvoice
#13 Posted : Monday, April 18, 2011 7:53:48 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 257
Vj wrote:
@earthvoice: I don't think it would be fair for me to give out details about contractors on a public forum, however if you provide me with your e.mail i would be glad to share them with you.


Thank you. My email is kratts2001(at)yahoo(dot)com
"All intelligent investing is value investing -- acquiring more than you are paying for. You must value the business in order to value the stock." - Charlie Munger.
SAC Cohen
#14 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 10:21:49 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/3/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Nairobi
Vj wrote:
@Siafu: the tender is opening on Thursday so will let you know of the outcome.

@earthvoice: I don't think it would be fair for me to give out details about contractors on a public forum, however if you provide me with your e.mail i would be glad to share them with you.

@Matatamingi: it should cost you between 20000-25000 for a stand alone bungalow, this cost is for a well finished bungalow i.e imported tiles, pitched stone finish etc.

@SAC Cohen: The luxury apartments are around 325sqm, 4 bedroom all ensuite, with german bathrooms (Hansgrohe) and kitchens (Nobilia). Spanish tiles in the common areas, a choice of floor finishes for the main apartment, decorative paints and so on. external amenities include: large swimming pool, party hall, 3 parking's per apartment, integrated security system, elevators, generator, borehole etc. The price seems high but i think its justified given the high quality of finishes e.g a single toilet set costs around 75,000. For this particular project i've sold all the units for between 35-50M, but trust me convincing someone to buy an apartment for the price of a bungalow is one of the most challenging tasks i've ever encountered.

@ Pablo: Your figure seems low for standard finishes, but maybe you can pull it off. I've partnered with one of my former employee's to build low cost homes in athi river and he manages the construction himself, we are getting a construction cost about 15,000 (this doesn't include any external works). But the quality is way inferior to what i call standard i.e wavy palster, use of second grade tiles, walls not following a straight path etc. There is no way i can give such quality to someone paying 16-18 M for an apartment. Thus if you want quality you have to pay for it, and my standard apartments have things like elevators, swimming pool, borehole, pitched stone external finishes, aluminium windows, Hwangsung wardrobes and kitchens. With all this its very easy for the price to climb to 32000 per sqm.


@Vj
Very insighful. Have you considered (or undertaken) a gated community project, with the usual say 4 br ensuite (finishes indicated earlier) , with each unit on a 1/2 acre? If yes, were the costs the same as the luxury apts per sqm?
nostoppingthis
#15 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 10:56:37 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
@ VJ property developer, i need your email, then we can talk nostoppingthis@gmail.com
Vj
#16 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:44:19 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/6/2010
Posts: 97
Location: nairobi, kenya
@earthvoice and nostopingthis i've sent you e.mails.

@SAC Cohen: I did town house projects a few years back, each house was on 1/8 of an acre, 5 bedrooms (3 en-suite), built up area was coming to around 375 sqm. The cost at that time was slightly higher than that of apartments (difference of between 500-750 per sqm).

In gated communities it would be better to make each house on a 1/4 acre than 1/2 an acre, as the percentage profit is higher when using 1/4 of an acre. If we consider an area like Karen and say you get the 1/2 acre at 15 M, build a 400 sqm house at a cost of say 35,000 which translates to 14M(i've taken 35,000 as the cost as there is likely to be a lot of external works like boundary wall, driveways, landscaping and the finishes mus also be good). The cost at this point is 29M, now to add on consultant fees of 7.5%, leaves the cost at 31M . Currently houses in karen are going for around 40M, so you are likely to make a profit of around 8M (Removed 1M for miscellaneous expenses).

Now if we consider 1/4 acre plots in the same area, the land would cost 7.5 M, build a 400 sqm house at a cost of say 32,000 which translates to 12.8M(The cost would fall as less external work needs to be done). The cost at this point is 20.3M, now to add on consultant fees of 7.5%, leaves the cost at 21M . You could sell that house for 30M still making a profit of around 8M (again removed 1M for miscellaneous expenses).

Using 1/4 acre plots gives you the same return as 1/2 acre but and requires less investment.
Before you can be be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
SAC Cohen
#17 Posted : Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:02:41 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/3/2011
Posts: 129
Location: Nairobi
Vj wrote:
@earthvoice and nostopingthis i've sent you e.mails.

@SAC Cohen: I did town house projects a few years back, each house was on 1/8 of an acre, 5 bedrooms (3 en-suite), built up area was coming to around 375 sqm. The cost at that time was slightly higher than that of apartments (difference of between 500-750 per sqm).

In gated communities it would be better to make each house on a 1/4 acre than 1/2 an acre, as the percentage profit is higher when using 1/4 of an acre. If we consider an area like Karen and say you get the 1/2 acre at 15 M, build a 400 sqm house at a cost of say 35,000 which translates to 14M(i've taken 35,000 as the cost as there is likely to be a lot of external works like boundary wall, driveways, landscaping and the finishes mus also be good). The cost at this point is 29M, now to add on consultant fees of 7.5%, leaves the cost at 31M . Currently houses in karen are going for around 40M, so you are likely to make a profit of around 8M (Removed 1M for miscellaneous expenses).

Now if we consider 1/4 acre plots in the same area, the land would cost 7.5 M, build a 400 sqm house at a cost of say 32,000 which translates to 12.8M(The cost would fall as less external work needs to be done). The cost at this point is 20.3M, now to add on consultant fees of 7.5%, leaves the cost at 21M . You could sell that house for 30M still making a profit of around 8M (again removed 1M for miscellaneous expenses).

Using 1/4 acre plots gives you the same return as 1/2 acre but and requires less investment.

@Vj
my email add is saxcohen@gmail.com. Would like to discuss further...Kindly inbox me. Thx
earthvoice
#18 Posted : Wednesday, April 20, 2011 12:42:46 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 257
Vj wrote:
@earthvoice and nostopingthis i've sent you e.mails.


thank you! saw your email. will respond...
"All intelligent investing is value investing -- acquiring more than you are paying for. You must value the business in order to value the stock." - Charlie Munger.
Vj
#19 Posted : Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:21:42 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/6/2010
Posts: 97
Location: nairobi, kenya
@SAC Cohen: i've sent you an e.mail.
Before you can be be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
siafu33
#20 Posted : Saturday, April 30, 2011 12:25:27 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/19/2011
Posts: 19
Location: Nairobi
@Vj, SAC Cohen, your discussions have been very insightful indeed, and Vj your openness is much appreciated :)

On another related topic that I'm starting elsewhere is the issue of JVs between a landowner and contractor/architect consortium, where the landowner is the developer and puts up the land to build 4 houses jointly with the consortium.

Kindly take a peek at that topic and let me know your thoughts if you're inclined...

Thanks again.
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