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Four MPs defect to NO camp
simonkabz
#81 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 5:12:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
Anyone who beleives the CURRENT constitution is WORSE THAN the PROPOSED draft, n goes ahead n votes NO, must be having very severe/acute brain knock/stroke! Never seen greater nonsense!
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
rasilio
#82 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 5:16:24 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 153
Location: FU
Fundaah, you give christianity a good name.

You will not have toiled in vain whatever the results. It is not yes or no, it is honest debate. Tell the people the truth and let them decide.

You are a role model for those who are looking for honest debate in Kenyan politics. I bow down to you.

As for the Omtata converts who seem to be teeming on this forum with the strangest of arguments, I think facebook is a good place for you. Don't carry your facebook arguments here, kuna wazee hapa.

Mpenzi
#83 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 5:24:46 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
rasilio and fundaah

no need to attack personalities - confine yourself to issues - then your arguments might just make sense. otherwise you sound like those very politicians you are attacking.
Fundaah
#84 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 5:31:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
Mpenzi wrote:
rasilio and fundaah

no need to attack personalities - confine yourself to issues - then your arguments might just make sense. otherwise you sound like those very politicians you are attacking.


I am a woman ...who values honesty and transparency.....This has been my motto in all my discussions in this forum....You will not say a lie as a politician or otherwise in my hearing/viewing /reading and expect it to go unexposed .....I have not attacked these politicians but repeated what they said on ISSUES in the draft....and attempted to correct the lies they are peddling.....
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
rasilio
#85 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 5:40:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 153
Location: FU
mpenzi..I have been informed the Omtata brigade has been challenged to go on all kenyan forums to attack the constitution on anything...

Don't you have enough air time on Nation TV at 9:30 pm every Thursday?

I have seen no attack on personalities. If you lie and you are caught on a lie, you don't go saying that the person who caught you lying is attacking you personally.

Tell the truth, and it shall set you free.
Fundaah
#86 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 6:04:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
some more civic education from Mutula Kilonzo:

http://www.standardmedia...ndpoint%20on%20abortion

By Mutula Kilonzo
The debate on the Proposed Constitution is enlightening. It is enlightening not because of what is being said, but more so for what is not being said. Take for example the issue of right to life.
The proposed law attempts to deal with this complicated moral issue. Indeed, the current debate has ignored the fact that the first and the second drafts of the Committee of Experts (CoE) did not contain a clause on right to life. The debate has also ignored the fact that the entire Article 26 on such right originated with the Church.
Church leaders substantially, made these proposals to the Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC) in its meetings in Naivasha. The National Christian Council of Kenya (NCCK), the Catholic Church, presented signed Memoranda and the Evangelical churches to the PSC and adopted.
The current bone of contention on the issue arises from the words "trained health professional" and "or as authorised by any written law" in Article 26 (4). The CoE inserted the words after the Naivasha Accord of the PSC. CoE was entitled to do so. The CoE argues, with justification, that many Kenyans do not have access to the services of a "certified" medical health practitioner as required by the Church.
The words "or if permitted by any other written law" in 26 (4) are in fact almost identical to "except to the extent authorised by this constitution or other written law" in 26(3). The two sub-clauses form a window for dealing with death penalty in (3) and for dealing with emergency surgical procedures intended at saving the life of the mother of a Kenyan unborn child/human embryo in (4).
The current Constitution has been running the country since 1963. It provides no recognition/protection of an embryo/unborn child.
Article 26 (4) of the proposed law is therefore a serious advancement of the all-important Christian standpoint on objections to abortion. Worse still, the debate has paid no attention to the existing law of the country on the question of Right to Life.
On August 1, 1930, the colonial administration enacted for Kenya the current Penal Code, Chapter 63 of our laws. Under section 7 of the said Code, ignorance of the law does not afford any excuse for any act or omission contrary to law.
Section 214 of the Code is entitled "When child deemed to be a person".
Apart from the Ten Commandments therefore, this is, for the ‘No’ clergy, the only legal provision that appears to protect an unborn child or human embryo in Kenya when in its mother’s womb. But does Section 214 of the Penal Code really protect an unborn child or human embryo?
It provides as follows: "A child becomes a person capable of being killed when it has completely proceeded in a living state from the body of its mother, whether it has breathed or not, and whether it has an independent circulation or not, and whether the navel-string is severed or not."
You do not need to be a rocket scientist to realise that this means that for present Kenyan law, life commences only when a child completely proceeds to land on Kenya’s soil in a living state "from the body of its mother". You do not need to be a rocket scientist to see that if the Proposed Constitution with its Article 26 (4) protects the killing by abortion or otherwise of a Kenyan inside their mother’s womb, which has not been the case since 1930.
The proposed law expressly, for the first time, outlaws abortion. The right to life must be limited as in 26 (3) and (4).
The great Lao Tsu, a Chinese philosopher, wrote more than 2,500 years ago that, "Even when a great resentment is reconciled some resentment must linger. How can this be made good?" Many Christians, like the author, are saying ‘Yes’ because they want abortion abolished; their pastors are saying ‘No’. Resentment is building up. How will you make it good?
—The writer is Minister for Justice, National Cohesion and Constitutional Affair
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Seeders
#87 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 6:41:54 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 234
Location: Nairobi
now that we are discussing truth, i am not sure where 'no referendum in my lifetime' and 'i am a man who posts as a woman' would uhhmmm...lie???

over to you my ever truthful yessing comrades.
yekeyeke
#88 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 7:45:30 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/4/2008
Posts: 345
This katiba will go no 56% and yes 44%.

The rest will be just debate.

Also kwani sinovate wako wapi siku hizi? They have taken too long to release their poll results at a time when the yes camp is reported to have losts a lot of support. A report given to Kofi annan last week showed the yes side with only 49% down from 58%.

At this rate the yes will end up with less than 44% on 4 august 2010.

TUANGUSHE
TUREKEBISHE
TUPITISHE

The church people are not crazy. Just look at what happened in Kampala Jana usiku??!!
Brewer
#89 Posted : Monday, July 12, 2010 8:55:14 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
simonkabz wrote:
Anyone who beleives the CURRENT constitution is WORSE THAN the PROPOSED draft, n goes ahead n votes NO, must be having very severe/acute brain knock/stroke! Never seen greater nonsense!


Is that an oxymoron or what? This far in the debate?

But really, there is such a thing as a poisoned chalice. For instance, on the issue ONLY of abortion a person may say it is so fundamental to him that if the glossy draft allows abortion on demand, he will vote NO.

@ Fundaah, I like your reproducing the article by no less than the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Affairs that talks about section 214 of the Penal Code which is under the chapter on Murder and Manslaughter but note that the 'civic education' by no less than the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Affairs would have had a different dimension if he cited section 158 of the same Penal Code under the Chapter on Offences Against Morality which says:

" Attempts to procure abortion.

158. Any person who, with intent to procure miscarriage of a woman, whether she is or is not with child, unlawfully administers to her or causes her to take any poison or other noxious thing, or uses any force of any kind, or uses any other means whatever, is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for fourteen years."

And by the way lest we miss some words in the draft that I have- just to be sure we are reading from the same draft with people writing in the media : Abortion is to be permitted in FOUR instances as per the opinion of the trained health professional a)where there is need for emergency treatment, b) where the life of the mother is in danger, c) where the health of the mother is in danger, d)or as may be permitted by any other written law. Next time you see someone write and stop at "abortion is permitted in the new draft where the life of the mother is in danger" check to see you have the correct draft!
rasilio
#90 Posted : Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:16:13 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 153
Location: FU
tuta zungukua zunguka na haya maneno.
watu waende wakapige kura. 3 weeks to go.
Njung'e
#91 Posted : Monday, July 19, 2010 11:00:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/7/2007
Posts: 11,935
Location: Nairobi
Jamleck re-defects.....BK
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
Fundaah
#92 Posted : Monday, July 19, 2010 11:06:01 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
When we follow the spirit of law and the right interpretation as per article 259(1)....I am on record saying there are no contentious issues in this draft ....what we have is inflated egos....this is just one evidence.....Just because the he could not convince the HBC to accept his demands he defected to No ....thinking his move would attract more defectors and derail the process....lakini wapi.....Wakenya wamechanuka....he changed his mind....which is a wise move...Wisemen change their minds...
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Wa_ithaka
#93 Posted : Monday, July 19, 2010 11:34:21 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 1,279
Location: nbi
Things must be bad if the No-ists are relying on characters like this lawyer. Apprently he requested for a kiuk translation but one was found in time for his sermon http://www.youtube.com/p...enya#p/u/1/FFRgNU8i2jc? ABK
The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
Impunity
#94 Posted : Monday, July 19, 2010 12:09:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
Njunge wrote:
Jamleck re-defects.....BK


Very useless indeed.And this are the people u entrust to put the meat on the bone which is the Draft document?
God help us.
Pray Pray Pray

Ati he was convinced that the hairy parts will be shaved once the draft is passed!!Kwani where was he all this time?
I will still vote the way I had decided.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Wendz
#95 Posted : Monday, July 19, 2010 12:18:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
Impunity wrote:
Njunge wrote:
Jamleck re-defects.....BK


Very useless indeed.And this are the people u entrust to put the meat on the bone which is the Draft document?
God help us.
Pray Pray Pray

Ati he was convinced that the hairy parts will be shaved once the draft is passed!!Kwani where was he all this time?
I will still vote the way I had decided.


They are just opportunists.... they see where the wind is blowing, and they head that direction.... May be he thought he would actually make news and become 'popular' by "defecting" to "no" then he realised no one even bothered, and now he wants to be part of those making history(in a good way) of this great nation....
Nandwa
#96 Posted : Monday, July 19, 2010 7:15:38 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/17/2009
Posts: 1,049


Jamlike Kamau,

Did money change hands!
Just a thought!
Just as absolute power corrupts leaders, so does absolute fanaticism blind the people from logic
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