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Euphoria kando, consider this
kadonye
#21 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 4:43:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
The thing that scares me most is that International Treaties will become part of our law even without going through our legislature
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
Fundaah
#22 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:06:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
[quote=B.Timer]Considering that it will not be a walk in the park amending the constitution if the proposed document passes the plebiscite test isnt it better to advocate doing so pre-referendum - however unpopular that position sounds.

In the interim ingest this:

Date 16th June 2010.
INTEROGATING THE PROPOSED CONSTITUTION.
The constitution being the supreme law of the land needs to be interrogated thoroughly and with sobriety, before we pass and subject ourselves to it.
Its Referendum process ought to be devoid of the usual passions, euphoria and blind following of the political elite. Unfortunately we seem to be falling into the same trap once again!
While appreciating that the proposed constitution is largely good for Kenya, I am uncomfortable with the areas as highlighted here after.

1)Kadhis Courts
Quite clearly, the principle of separation of state and religion is offended.
Inequality and/or lack of fairness in the way religious groups are addressed by the constitution - promoting the perception that one religion is favoured - as its practice is adopted by the state and funded by Govt.
It is discriminatory to all those who don’t profess Islam faith.
This in itself has the potential to cause friction among religious groups and possible nasty confrontations.
I see this as a kind of instilling fear to kenyans because Kadhis courts have been in existence since independence ...did kenyans fight each other in 2007 /8 because of Kadhis court....These are also specialised subordinate courts and anyone who is not satisfied in their rulings can go to the mainstream courts .....they are there to assist the mainstream courts ....both parties must agree to go to the Kadhis court...If you are not a muslim why should you deny your children the good governance, grass roots development entailed in the draft because of Kadhis court which will not affect your way of life? besides there is some history on the Kadhis courts
I got this from someone
I hope you know the book of Joshua Chapter 9, and what Joshua did
with the Gebion, when the Israelites broke the covenant and went to war they
were defeated, read the book of Joshua and know why and what was God's
answer. Our God respect covenants made by his people our fathers entered in
an agreement with the sultan and this can only be removed through dialogue
and not by forcing it be removed. Christians being one of them, should
attract others by our Christlike actions but not feeling we have the numbers
but don't do the will of God. The ....




2)Land.
Minimum and maximum parcels permissible!
This can only serve to upset the hither to prevailing equilibrium.
Declaring minimum and maximum acreage is introducing uncertainty in a hitherto stable situation. While I view the idea of putting an upper ceiling on land that one can hold as socialist, my main beef is with the low end capping.(the parliament Minimum land parcels allowed by law will mean many people cannot legally own land. What will happen to people whose pieces fall below the minimum then? Think
of Kenyans in places like Kiambu, Kisii etc.

This mininum acrage will be done by the representatives of the people(MPs)with input from the people.....its up to the people to give input to their Mps on what the minimum acreage would be in their region..... ......and then it will be possible to set different minimum acreages for different areas.....This constitution is not aimed at causing chaos but ensuring land is optimumly used....should the minimum can become difficult determine it could be set at Zero.....as for the maximum that is easy to handle because most of huge tracts of lands owned by individuals are Idle.....the aim it to ensure that these land is put into economic activity. creat jobs and food security..It was impractical to set exact minimum and maximum acreage because land use is quite dynamic and its easier to change an act of parliament to deal with such dynamism that change the constitution (it has taken us over 20years)...


will respond to the others pole pole as we head to 4 Aug ....
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Fundaah
#23 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:12:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
kadonye wrote:
The thing that scares me most is that International Treaties will become part of our law even without going through our legislature



2.Supremacy of this Constitution

(6) Any treaty or convention ratified by Kenya shall form part of the law of
Kenya under this Constitution.


Ratified is the Key word....the treaties have to be ratified..... of course by parliament the law making organ.....it's not automatic.....
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
kadonye
#24 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:18:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
Fundaah wrote:
kadonye wrote:
The thing that scares me most is that International Treaties will become part of our law even without going through our legislature



2.Supremacy of this Constitution

(6) Any treaty or convention ratified by Kenya shall form part of the law of
Kenya under this Constitution.


Ratified is the Key word....the treaties have to be ratified..... of course by parliament the law making organ.....it's not automatic.....

@Funda, a lawyer told me they're ratified by guys from the AG's office:the state counsel
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
Fundaah
#25 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:22:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
in the current constitution ...no one knows where / when these treaties are ratified...
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
funnyguy
#26 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:33:55 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/7/2008
Posts: 50
Fundaah wrote:
in the current constitution ...no one knows where / when these treaties are ratified...


@Fundaah, does the proposed constitution mention where/when/what conditions have to be met for the trieties to be ratified? That'd be great! I wonder how the Americans handle international trieties in their constitution (Kyoto Protocol??).
Wendz
#27 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:39:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
funnyguy wrote:
Fundaah wrote:
in the current constitution ...no one knows where / when these treaties are ratified...


@Fundaah, does the proposed constitution mention where/when/what conditions have to be met for the trieties to be ratified? That'd be great! I wonder how the Americans handle international trieties in their constitution (Kyoto Protocol??).


Who are the law makers in kenya?
Fundaah
#28 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 5:43:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
Funny guy...

Theconstitution provides a frame...the citizens through their representatives adds the meat....its up to the parliament to set those conditions.....Remember even setting the conditions could have brought up other contentious issues just as the setting of detailed conditions on abortion has done.....in setting the conditions
......the spirit of the constitution will rule....

Supremacy of this Constitution

2.
(4) Any law, including customary law, that is inconsistent with this
Constitution is void to the extent of the inconsistency, and any act or
omission in contravention of this Constitution is invalid.

Surely where is TRS....why have you left all this explanations to me make.....ama kwako hakuna free lunches .....Fatigue ...fatigue.....on me
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Wendz
#29 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:05:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
2)Land.
Minimum and maximum parcels permissible!
This can only serve to upset the hither to prevailing equilibrium.
Declaring minimum and maximum acreage is introducing uncertainty in a hitherto stable situation. While I view the idea of putting an upper ceiling on land that one can hold as socialist, my main beef is with the low end capping.(the parliament Minimum land parcels allowed by law will mean many people cannot legally own land. What will happen to people whose pieces fall below the minimum then? Think
of Kenyans in places like Kiambu, Kisii etc.

Let me try help Fundaah to answer this.

@B Timer

You have raised a very good issue and even the examples that you have given. Well, this constitution is being made to remain for the next 50 or 100 or even 200 years. Well, you have seen what has happened in Kiambu and kisii since independence. Add Nyeri area on that too and even Nairobi. With an expanding population, the government, in future, has to make sure that it can make land as useful as possible. Now, that land can only be economically useful if it is consolidated. the government, in future needs to figure out how it can consolidate the land and leave it in a productive sizes otherwise this country will not be in a position to feed its own people. Ask yourself, if the whole country was like Kiambu, do you honestly think we can feed ourselves? the land will be subdivided into uneconomical sizes and hence, not productive. So somehow, there might come a period where the government may need to entice people to move to "urban areas" and leave the land free for farming. This is not something that will be done in our lifetime, but the government of the day may see how well to handle that.
kadonye
#30 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:07:26 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
My fear is we'll have international treaties being part of our constitution.Which section specifies that any ratification will go through bunge?
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
funnyguy
#31 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:08:01 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/7/2008
Posts: 50
@Fundaah, thanks for your patience. I guess we'll have to make sure that the next bunch or parliamenterians are beyond reproach! Personally, I have no faith in them. . .that they have the country's best interest at heart.

I've been almost indifferent about the referendum but I'm learning a lot that might change my mind about it.
Fundaah
#32 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:13:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
kadonye wrote:
My fear is we'll have international treaties being part of our constitution.Which section specifies that any ratification will go through bunge?



That is where the parliament shall come in handy ...they should come up with an Act to legislate the ratification....furthermore laws are made in a continous /dynamic manner...furthermore what are we paying them millions to do?....make laws
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Wendz
#33 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:25:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
kadonye wrote:
My fear is we'll have international treaties being part of our constitution.Which section specifies that any ratification will go through bunge?


I would think, since its the law making body in the country, it just follows that they are the ones entrusted in making/ratifying it as law - unless we want to put everything in the katiba.... My thinking.
kadonye
#34 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:52:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
Thanks ladies, I now see why we should see more of u in bungesmile smile (This was also a contentious issue for me but I relaxed on it)

According to Wikipidea, it's not obvious who ratifies treaties elsewhere in the world though in most cases it is parliament that does it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
kadonye
#35 Posted : Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:57:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
With these many interpretation issues which are clear even to laymen in law,I think it's wise I change my career to law.smile

By 30 I'll be an LLBsmile
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
Fundaah
#36 Posted : Friday, July 16, 2010 10:12:36 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
I think with proper civic education....this document can get an overwhelming acceptable.....delibarate minformation ....ignorance....selective reading. propaganda ....resitance to change .....fear of the unknown...and negativity are some of the factors making the document look bad.....I was impressed by Bishop Korir on KTN on agenda 5 programme when he said that the document is over 75% good....this was honesty.....From the discussion and his arguments with proper explanation in regards to Law ..... and willingness on their side to learn ......the Law profession is very broad and versatile....I feel that the Clergy can be convinced to support the draft....The COE did a good job in the programme too...Please lets avoid egocentric....


Please.....please...... please Vote peacefully ...whichever way you vote...Love and embrace your brothers and sisters ..... Kenya is our only home and it belongs to us all....preach this also to your folks...there is life after August 5....Dont fight....
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
funnyguy
#37 Posted : Friday, July 16, 2010 10:55:38 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/7/2008
Posts: 50
@Fundaah. I don't think the clergy have ever condemned the document as 100% bad. The bone of contention has been when to sort out the 'bad' issues (before or after referendum), i think.
Wendz
#38 Posted : Friday, July 16, 2010 11:30:27 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
funnyguy wrote:
@Fundaah. I don't think the clergy have ever condemned the document as 100% bad. The bone of contention has been when to sort out the 'bad' issues (before or after referendum), i think.


Who watched Agenda 5 yesterday? The priest was not even letting the lawyer interpret the document just because it did not give the meaning that he wanted it to give....
Fundaah
#39 Posted : Friday, July 16, 2010 11:40:54 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 1,267
Wendz wrote:
funnyguy wrote:
@Fundaah. I don't think the clergy have ever condemned the document as 100% bad. The bone of contention has been when to sort out the 'bad' issues (before or after referendum), i think.


Who watched Agenda 5 yesterday? The priest was not even letting the lawyer interpret the document just because it did not give the meaning that he wanted it to give....


That is why I said lets stop being egocentric....Only God is all knowing ....With proper education and willingness to learn... the clergy can see where they may be going wrong....

Please Christians ....its time to pray for God's revelation.....and let the will of God to take course...
Please.....please...... please Vote peacefully ...whichever way you vote...Love and embrace your brothers and sisters ..... Kenya is our only home and it belongs to us all....preach this also to your folks...there is life after August 5....Dont fight....
Isaiah 65:17-Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth, and no one will even think about the old ones anymore
Ngalaka
#40 Posted : Friday, July 16, 2010 11:51:13 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
Kenya is already a signatory to various international laws.
That means Kenya has already ratified them!
Upon the passage of the proposed constitution, those laws automatically become part of Kenyan law.
e.g ICC and its laws.
These weren’t debated and passed by Parliament.

But any way, we are dying to jump headlong into this, so any explanation to the contrary is supposed to be jeered upon.
Be my guest!
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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