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Thika Road Expansion was a Mistake
Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/25/2007 Posts: 1,574
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Ephy wrote:By the time they think of a railway,the economic activities on thika road will have increased,then there will be more cars,people and goods..so a railway link is MANDATORY. Well said! Thika will grow and grow and grow. And soon, we will need 12 lanes at 50 Billion in 2015. If you build a rail network now, it becomes a viable option of travel for now and the future. Railways are dominant modes of travel in China and India, as in most developed countries. Set out to correct the world's wrongs and you will most certainly wind up adding to them.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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@mukiha, kudos for radical thinking and restraint. @yekeyeke in a crass manner shows how emotive human beings are.
Hence a rational solution must be adapted to cater for aspirational needs of the citizens; even though in doing it, it may make the solution less effecient.
I agree with @simonkabz most though; the problem may be we are looking at an either/or situation. The Chinese are just doing a good job. If Sheltam had done the same with RVR, we'd be all the merrier.
And a little tax here, and a little subsidy there, would leave @yekeyeke and the rest of us with freedom of choice. @mukiha, we'd arrive at your decision, but we'd be left happy believing we are smart for arriving there.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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@mukiha, I see your point and it has merit but I disagree that it was a mistake. Road expansion on Kenyan pre-1960 roads (not only Thika rd.) is long overdue. Train and air transport should also come in but as alternative modes not to replace road transport. I think the emulate the SA model.
BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,548
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So who will give birth to (or from where)will these people who will make Thika "grow and grow and grow" come from? What of the real estate expansion will it drive Nairobi City rents up or down? if down what will happen to property prices? will they follow? I think the net effect will be a diffusion of sorts and general ease of traffic around Nairobi A New Kenya
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2008 Posts: 345
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All of you contributors who support railway are very very ignorant. The govenment did its reserch and i do not make any apologies for my contributions. 2nd world war is very relevant today. Why dont you read wikipedia to see my point na mwache mdomo mingi. someni hi link ama mkae. http://www.afdb.org/file...IKA-HIGHWAY-PROJECT.PDF Mukiha:- Here is the interstate link. Jisomee, Juamulia, Jijilie. http://en.wikipedia.org/...nterstate_Highway_System
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/6/2008 Posts: 632
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This is interesting to see the divergent views on infrastructure. I can support both views and what we need to understand both sides. This advantages are it will definitely create a lot of jobs during the construction and commissioning of the phases as well as the jobs that will spring up in the stations vicinity.People will also save time using the train as well as accident costs will be greatly reduced and not forgetting the effect it will have on the environment through less emissions..Other factors will be increment of the area's competitive edge and development of small and medium size enterprises. Now how safe will this trains be?, the affordability, frequency of trips, loss or personal space,overcrowding,reliability,incentives to stop using cars for the train, transport to and from the stations, parking at the station,frequency of trips,which would be the best route(feasibility vis a vis population) etc etc..I think when the govt was faced with all this IF's then i can see why they chose the "SAFER" option and expand the existing highway. What i know the govt has some serious smart lads lets give them the credit they deserve!! i am not saying the issues raised here are not valid just that it's important to look at both sides of the spectrum every once in a while and also let's not forget the govt usually has data/info that we may not usually have/understand!!
The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/7/2007 Posts: 2,182
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yekeyeke, what is wrong with u? moving on a one way train can carry upto 25 carriages to the minimum. 100 per carriage makes it 2500 pple per trip. the maximum time to thika is 25 minutes. how about ten trains? in germany the most used modes are trains and bicycles. how abt that. LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 153 Location: FU
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You can't start running before you can walk.
Now Kenyans want railway lines.. Let us be serious here.
The problem with Kenya is poor infrastructure.
The most basic infrastructure is
1. Roads,
2. Telephones,
3. Sewage system, and
4. Water
Please before you start coming up with great ideas about railways, broadband access, vision 2030 cities, you need to fix these problems first.
who said people will move to thika road? will you live in an area with no water, no sewage system? If you do, don't complain.
While I agree that a railway line is a good thing, let us not forget the basic tenants of economics.
Without good roads, and I mean even donkey roads, you are going nowhere first.
So before you all start shouting "the gov't is stupid" ( a common kenyan habit), be glad that at long last you will have something the world can consider to be a ROAD.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/1/2009 Posts: 2,436
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Plse, accept we are very poor in railway management! Let us not even consider other forms of mass-transportation systems! Like the maglev trains, trams,etc.we have far too many power black-outs taking place you dont want that to suddenly happen when your train is at 180km/h...
Didn't we stupidly give that useless S.African Roy Puffet - a guy with no proven expertise in large-scale projects, leave alone even railways itself - to turnround a moribund Kenya Railways (itself another failure)? How many NEW kms of railway network have we added after what the Indian coolies did in 19OOs? Zit it is.
And where are the locomotives for use on the railway line to come from, when every now and then the temptation is great to raid our railway museums and cajole the decaying steam machines back to the century-old tracks? We can't afford new locomotives engines - except 1 or 2, and then we repaint the carriages in new RVR livery and say we have a new railway line!
Truth is what we need are mass-transportation systems - but we have neither the financial nor management wherewithal to make it a reality. So lets us stick to roads, where our success varies from road to road.
Lets make long-life ones like the German autobahns, or learn the art of maintaining roads and nt wait till potholes to appear like we now do but not undertake the outrageously expensive ones like the 6-km Mbagathi Rd that cost in excess of KShs 90M per km and 2 yrs to complete.
Thika Rd carries abt 70,000 vehicles per day.
Of course expanding it is prudent when viewed from a long term planning horizon, and so long as those roundabouts - so called traffic islands which are the main cause of jams on Msa Rd-are not built. Then the contractors have to plan the construction well so that there is minimum interruption.
Methinks a road is better because it leads to development of many more feeder roads that link up to the main road compared to a railway one, thus ensuring accessibility & dev of surrounding regions.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/12/2007 Posts: 75
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I agree and disagree with Mukiha.
DISAGREE: For instance, Nairobi road network today was built when it had a population of less than 500K. Incidentally, the rail system was efficient . The population has since exploded to beyond 3M yet the road and rail network have largely remained unchanged, not to mention that the latter ceased to operate due to reasons I do not need to document.
Road network expansion, including housing, health, educational facilities etc. must move in tandem with population growth. If the population grows by 1M, the above services have to be expanded to cater for the growth.
AGREE: Investment in alternative modes of transport should be prioritised in equal measure. Rail system is much cheaper, both for passenger and cargo. For example, it costs less to transport a container from Mombasa to Nairobi on rail than a truck. Sorry to say, but a truck carrying one container is like a boda boda with one passenger. On a broader view, rather than going for bigger scale and better efficiency, smaller capacity has been embraced.
From experience, "park and ride" systems work if well managed. By improving the rail system, the need to use cars will diminish.
I regularly leave my car at home to take a mat to town cum other destinations because of heavy traffic, parking shortage etc. However, some close friends cannot contemplate how one can opt for public means.
The mindset of Kenyans will only change once they see it works.
I rest my case. The stone throwing can begin.
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/25/2007 Posts: 55
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@Mukia you have a point the city of London is what it is because of the railway network,if it was to be subtituted with individual cars absolute chaos.Those critising you are basing what they have seen in Kenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/7/2010 Posts: 1,279 Location: nbi
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Kumagara ni kuhega. Some of us must take a break from River Road business and travel abroad even if its to Moscow. Rail can make a difference. Unlike the 8 lane Thika Road. Kenyans liek their cars and its guaranteed that as soon we complete the 8-lane there will be calls for 12 lane... The Governor of Nyeri - 2017
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2008 Posts: 345
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Wale hawataki thika road to be expanded can go jump. We dont want a railway. A metro maybe.
Mukiha and the others can go stay in london if they so want.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/8/2008 Posts: 947
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@ Muhika ....
I totally disagree with you. A few points you should consider
1. The cost of building a new railway line would be much more than the cost of building the railway. Cost of steel, expertise, trains etc!
2. Building the Thika nairobi rail track will only serve as a passenger transport. Which will be a waste! For goods to travel through the rail you will require similar track size in nairobi industrial area, and all the way to mombasa. So the increased construction cost for the railway will only be to serve passengers and very few goods.That wont be cost effective.
3. Management of mass transport services and keeping time is difficult for Kenyans who suffer from timeless-itis.
And in the UK it is cheaper to use the buses and vehicles as opposed to trains for long distance journeys. The only advantage of using trans is the speed. Even in london it is much cheaper to use the buses than it is to use the tube!
Clearly road trumps train in cost but trains beats roads hands down in speed!
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/8/2009 Posts: 171
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Mukiha, Let's see how well this shall come to pass. http://bit.ly/b2sGXe¡ʇɹoɟɟǝ ƃuıɟɟǝ ǝɥʇ ɹoɟ ɥɔnɯ os ؛uıɐʌ uı ɔıqɐɹɐ ƃuıuɹɐǝן pǝıɹʇ ı
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/18/2009 Posts: 303
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http://bit.ly/b2sGXe
I think we are moving somewhere..... “With the help of a metropolitan transport authority, all transport systems compliment each other rather than competing against each other,” says Mr Mukabana of Kenya Bus, “such that you can use one ticket to board a train and a bus.”
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/18/2006 Posts: 3
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@mukiha,
I've lived in Thika for over 20years. Ten years ago, you could travel from Thika at 7am, be at work by 8. These days standard leaving time is 5.30am.
If you leave work at 5pm, the earliest you can get home is 7.30pm. This road is carrying the hope of all the people in juja, thika, murang'a, kandara, kenol, gatundu who for their own reasons choose to commute to nairobi daily. At least when it's complete they can get to live less of their life in a matatu.
PS; Most people who commute to nairobi from the said areas live in their own houses or are in the process of getting their own. And most of the flats in zimmerman, kasarani, thome are owned by guys from these areas too.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/30/2007 Posts: 1,558 Location: Nairobi
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yekeyeke wrote:@Mukiha. Wewe ni P***u. If you have a plane to take you to various places, why do you want us, wealth earners on thika road to use trains? Have you ever in your short life been inside a train?. Bure kabisa.
The KES 26B thats being spent on thika road is the best money ever to be spent on any road in kenya.
I supporse that you also strongly feel that the bypass money should also have been spent on a project of your choice?
Did you ever study ecomonics in school? Do you know the link between GDP growth and infstructure?
Wewe you need some serious prayers.
Trains and people of thika road do not mix. We are not cows!!!!!! to ride on trains.
Wewe nyamaza tu to see the road get completed and then you can move to thika road as well. We have seen property appreciate in nairobi, only in areas where there is infrastructure.
Kama Thika road inajaa, una shida gani. Kama umeona Green intashindwa kwa referndum, ulituletee sisi.
Wacha barabara ijengwe.
-How do you go shoping with a train?
-How do kids go to school in a train?
-How do you deliver produce in a train?
-How do you ask +80K cars users a day to use a train.
-Wewe ni P***u!!!!
Dude...in the west, they go shopping, school, work etc in the train! Look at the underground in London or the subway in NYC.
However, the road does need expansion for sure! Nothing that my chum Mukiha will do or say, is going to stop that...!
Infact, if anyone here has been to Amsterdam, you probably know that they have the best train system in western europe with their double decker, silent trains and that they are always constructing roads all over the City
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 6/8/2007 Posts: 675
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@yekeyeke, you're being too emotional. Try and argue rationally. I think both sides have an argument. The main thing would be that starting from NOW (rather than waiting for the next transport crisis), we need to expand ALL alternative modes of transport. Rail must be upgraded, as well as road, and there needs to be a decent way for bicycle users to travel (rather than risking dear life on motor ways). I think we also need to have public transport be clean and decent, so that it draws back those who think it's a "poor" man's means of transport. Form is temporary, class is permanent
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2008 Posts: 345
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@ Mukiha I one again challenge you to read the contents of the below link and after you have done so, i dare you to continue insisting that thika road expansion was a mistake. Are you serious to urgue that all the decision makers at the African Development bank do not understand the difference between a road and a rail line? http://www.afdb.org/file...IKA-HIGHWAY-PROJECT.PDF
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