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Tax evasion using M-Pesa
Rank: Member Joined: 7/1/2009 Posts: 273
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Fyatu wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:Fyatu wrote:sparkly wrote:
This is Kenya. It is for everyone to assess their own taxes and for KRA confirm compliance. There is no prescribed method of collecting sales as long as prescribed records are kept, taxes computed, returns done and taxes paid.
1. Why then would a butcher or a petro-station attendant or a barman ask that instead of me paying them via lipa-na-mpesa, i should withdraw the amount owed from a certain M-Pesa agent number? Kwani, how is it that YOU only end up at such businesses?
Why are you not going to other businesses?
Is there a cost/fee to the merchant from M-Pesa?Are the sales legit meaning are you buying what the EMPLOYEE (not the BUSINESS) is selling? *If a bar owner is not watching the bartender and waiters can sell beer/whiskey/vodka/alcohol - bought by the bartender at wholesale - at bar prices for cash. These profits go to the bartender and waiters and not to the OWNERS of the bar.2. Why am i withdrawing cash that i cannot see and how does this count as payment? Why? Why? Why? Go elsewhere. Demand an ETR.
3. Why make an otherwise simple transaction so complicated? 4. What are they hiding? 5. How does M-Pesa business model work? For the pub/booze scenario it has happened twice in the same pub and this last time (on Saturday) is when i asked questions. The first time lets say i was a bit jolly, but still noted something was odd. I prefer doing lipa-na-mpesa for everything from Supermarket to Mama n'tilie. As for the big mall experience, lets just say the guy across the counter asked me to send payment to his mobile number after i had haggled a decent 5% discount.(I enjoy haggling with members of the 44th tribe of Kenya). Also, i actually have no ill feelings for them.They are cool peeps who have a very rich culture of tasty foods and powerful herbs(medicinal) and are good businessmen for that matter.Its just that when i got home in the evening and meditated i felt the transaction was not right. Long before M-Pesa came, there was cash, cheques, TT and credit card payments. Every method has risks and costs. Not every business is willing to incur M-Pesa Merchant costs; the same reason some businesses surchange you if you use a Credit Card, or don't accept them at all. That doesn't mean they are evading Tax. I've encountered several other non-asian owned businesses, including EastMatt Supermarket, stopping their M-Pesa payment options at various times, so you cannot single out a particular community. It is a business decision.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,820 Location: Nakuru
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NewMoney wrote:Fyatu wrote:kawi254 wrote:sparkly wrote:Fyatu wrote:I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.
And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).
The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.
Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this? How do you know they don't pay tax? The only way to avoid taxes is to go 100% cash, but even that is not fool proof. I know of a small petrol stations owner who has registered as an M-PESA agent so basically when you pay by withdrawing from M-PESA Agent you are paying Him. Could it be a way of escaping Merchant fees charged by Safaricom on Paybill/Buy Goods and also gaining from M-PESA Agent fees? ....does KRA have access to M-PESA transactions? recent media reports of KRA wanting M-PESA transaction data seems to point that they don't have it. How does Safaricom make money from Lipa-na-mpesa "buy goods service"? Is this what you are referring as merchant fees? What advantages does a till number have that will make a business want to incur costs for it in the form of merchant fees? Note. I am not suggesting they start charging the customer for it. These are some of the advantages merchants get with till number 1)Once you pay with lipa na mpesa you can't reverse the transaction, only the merchant can authorise the reverse, 2) there is no limit how much money can be collected on a till number. 3) Cash handling is risky and expensive, money can be stolen by thugs or by fraudulent employees, mpesa provides a great alternative 4) a till number typically charges 1% of all money paid to it which is much cheaper than credit/debit cards which charge over 3% in most cases 5) customers spend more when paying via mpesa, since they typically have access to more money in mpesa than in cash 6) merchants get a nice portal where they can audit all payments in a computer and transfer the funds to a bank account, much easier than you can do if you receive the money on a regular mpesa line Asante sana. Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,820 Location: Nakuru
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Monk wrote:
Long before M-Pesa came, there was cash, cheques, TT and credit card payments. Every method has risks and costs. Not every business is willing to incur M-Pesa Merchant costs; the same reason some businesses surchange you if you use a Credit Card, or don't accept them at all. That doesn't mean they are evading Tax. I've encountered several other non-asian owned businesses, including EastMatt Supermarket, stopping their M-Pesa payment options at various times, so you cannot single out a particular community. It is a business decision.
Thanks for the explanation. Once again, it is not about one community. It is just that i found the transaction strange given that there was a till number available but the businessman requested that i transfer the money to his mobile money. This was not as bad as the pub experience where i was asked to withdraw cash from an agent. Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,351 Location: Nairobi
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Fyatu wrote:Monk wrote:
Long before M-Pesa came, there was cash, cheques, TT and credit card payments. Every method has risks and costs. Not every business is willing to incur M-Pesa Merchant costs; the same reason some businesses surchange you if you use a Credit Card, or don't accept them at all. That doesn't mean they are evading Tax. I've encountered several other non-asian owned businesses, including EastMatt Supermarket, stopping their M-Pesa payment options at various times, so you cannot single out a particular community. It is a business decision.
Thanks for the explanation. Once again, it is not about one community. It is just that i found the transaction strange given that there was a till number available but the businessman requested that i transfer the money to his mobile money. This was not as bad as the pub experience where i was asked to withdraw cash from an agent. So you wanted a discount and pay by Lipa Na MPesa which charges a fee to the seller. Was the businessman running a charity? Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/17/2010 Posts: 110 Location: Nairobi
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Early days of peeps reacting to TT's tax collection/ compliance enforcement. Not totally foolproof but a key indicator that Githii teeth is biting.
Wait for Mama Mbogas to discover Cayman islands and start accepting bitcoin. Looming mass transfer of assets to corporates (offshore?) and banks losing their trust as they are easily arm-twisted to freeze people accounts.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/18/2019 Posts: 185 Location: kenya
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These guys don't pay tax. All that other stuff is kizungu mingi lol.
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,351 Location: Nairobi
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Fyatu wrote:I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.
And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).
The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.
Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this? Seems widespread. https://twitter.com/DrKa...1182521407823069185?s=20Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,820 Location: Nakuru
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VituVingiSana wrote:Fyatu wrote:I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.
And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).
The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.
Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this? Seems widespread. https://twitter.com/DrKa...182521407823069185?s=20
Hehehehe...Kenya is damned. The system is rotten to the core. Restoring discipline and adherence to rule of law among citizens has to be top government priority. Kenyans of goodwill should not cease to whistle blow. If you see something, say something.Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 10,809 Location: NAIROBI
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Fyatu wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:[quote=Fyatu]I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.
And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).
The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.
Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this? Seems widespread. https://twitter.com/DrKa...182521407823069185?s=20
Hehehehe...Kenya is damned. The system is rotten to the core. Restoring discipline and adherence to rule of law among citizens has to be top government priority. Kenyans of goodwill should not cease to whistle blow. [u]If you see something, say Fiscal discipline by treasury first Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/9/2010 Posts: 320 Location: kenya
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Ericsson wrote:Fyatu wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:[quote=Fyatu]I have noticed a trend when you ask to lipa-na-mpesa you are asked to either send the money to the shopowners line or in case of some pubs you are asked to withdraw money to an agent number provided by the waiter/bar tender.Funny enough is that these shops and pubs have paybill numbers.
And i am speaking about high-end shops huko Sarit, Garden city, Two-rivers etc owned by people of other races considered superior to Africans but not superior to Wazungus(i speak in code).
The pubs that are asking patrons to send money to an agent number as if they are withdrawing money have names of a noisy bird and are usually found at petrol stations formerly owned(minority owned) by @VVS and @Marehemu Totalman a.k.a The bull of Auckland.
Can Safaricom, KRA and DCI investigate this? Seems widespread. https://twitter.com/DrKa...182521407823069185?s=20
Hehehehe...Kenya is damned. The system is rotten to the core. Restoring discipline and adherence to rule of law among citizens has to be top government priority. Kenyans of goodwill should not cease to whistle blow. [u]If you see something, say Fiscal discipline by treasury first This sounds funny but real. However, come to think of it deeply, the persons who are collecting data/ tax may not be trustworthy enough. The looting of our national resources by the elite is terrible. The concessions entered right left center are not transparent e.g ....petroleum, maize imports, sgr, bonds, blah blah... Work hard at your job and you can make a living. Work hard on yourself and you can make a fortune.
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